AreWeTheBaddies.gif

Journalists: It appeared to be a South African karate chop of some kind
- Punches In Afrikaans
- If you went to college and knew any media majors you’d know exactly why media is failing us. Some journalists are the exception, obviously, but not the ones to whom you refer.
  
  I didn't know any media majors so maybe you could enlighten us.
  
  I figure ProPublica and The Lancet doesn't feel the need to write about a Nazi salute we could all see for our own eyes, no investigative journalism necessary.

It has been maddening how corporate media has been trying to tell us it was anything but a Nazi salute. I'm reminded of the Star Trek episode Chain of Command Part II, "There are four lights!"
- Imagine what else they've been lying about.
  
  Lots of sex stuff with kids... some accidental murder and drug binges... the typical conservative stuff they project on others.
  
  Gell-Mann Amnesia effect
- link?
  
  I studied Star Trek at university, taught the history of Star Trek on two continents and wrote for major newspapers about Star Trek. I am internet famous for fact-checking chuds on the history, ideology and policy of the Federation.
  There are four lights.
  
  https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Chain_Of_Command,_Part_I_(episode)
  https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Chain_Of_Command,_Part_II_(episode)
  
  it's a joke about the movie Gaslight

White power is in the White House…quite terrifying and embarrassing
- It's been in the White House goddammit, they're just being open about it now.
- No one tell bro about Woodrow Wilson
  
  Or Andrew Jackson.
- It was built on that, better to get rid of it along with the pres and vp jobs

He claimed it was a "my heart goes out to you" sentiment.
But the "my heart goes out to you" gesture is palm-up...
- Generally you don't yeet your heart out with such force either
  
  I'll give him this. That shit was crisp. Almost as if he stood in front of a mirror practicing it over and over.
- I mean it just doesn't matter what it was "supposed" to be. How many times have we seen things that are sooort of close to the nazi salute so people are like "hey better not do that." And this is stuff that's like basically just anything holding your hand in the air. This was straight up the salute lol I mean there's no two ways about it. The question is what the intention was. And if it wasn't intended to be some sort of nod to Nazism or fascism or something, why in the flying fuck would you do it?! lol I mean everyone in the literal world knows it would prolly be a bad idea to do anything like that but the self proclaimed Uber genius, smartest man in the world, ultra mega mastermind, God gamer musk... It just slips his mind?
  
  The fact that he does it with such force and enthusaism too...
  
  so either it was an intended nazi salute or this guy is a fucking moron, or both.
- My heart goes out to you is the fig leaf Elon used for plausible deniability. He probably thinks he was terribly clever. Which, as it turns out, he was. Elon will get away with this and pushed the envelope of what’s possible. Others will imitate him.
  This has all the elements for a softer fascist salute, where the words aren’t „Sieg Heil!“ or „Duce!“, but simply „my heart!“. A salute with the hand moving from heart to extension while saying firmly „my heart!“ works well to be visually striking.
  
  But fElon doesn't have a heart
- https://i.imgur.com/9MFAxT4.mp4
- Or palm down with one or two fingers extended

Everyone knows it was a Nazi Salute.
Nazi's just denying it because 1) they are not quite at the point where they can sieg heil while marching down mainstreet just yet and 2) because it amuses them to see the left try to desperately convince them it was a nazi salute.
All your desperate justification, facts, evidence, etc?
It wont make a nazi not a nazi.
but it will amuse them, and exhaust you.
Its time to stop using words against nazis, and go back to using forms are communication that carry a more physical finality to their arguments.
- Yep.
  Now each of us has to answer: are we going to sit down at the table currently seating n number of Nazis, and let it become n+1.
  Stop enriching this freak.
- What facts and evidence can you provide that Musk did a Nazi salute?
  My understanding is that a Nazi salute:
  Starts at the waist
  Is accompanied by the word “Heil Hitler”
  Is done in the context of some Nazi event
  Is not accompanied by the words “My heart goes out to you”
  Am I wrong? Do you have facts and evidence that trump what I said above?
  
  Oh right, cause it's only a nazi salute if you announce at least three times like Beetlejuice that you're a Nazi. Since he only did 2, I guess we'll just never be sure .....
  
  https://i.imgur.com/cTxdXlu.mp4 …? Or maybe this https://i.imgur.com/TKduSxt.mp4 Or do these look the same to you - https://i.imgur.com/9MFAxT4.mp4
  
  You are wrong about all points
  If you'd like to know why please give us your full name and address and someone will be along to explain it in a language you understand
  
  You are wrong and also blocked for Nazi apologetics
  
  Hey look, another sea lion!

Inventing a time machine that lets you go back and kill hitler before he gets in power is a very common power fantasy.
- Time travel guy failed by a couple of centimeters.
  
  Hey, nobody’s ever heard of Hans Sprechter in this timeline and that’s a win
- Yet today when Americans have 2A and 11 guns per person instead of killing tyrants they'll side with them out of convenience and self preservation. The apathetic centrist majority who think political illiteracy is the reasonable and sensible position are the biggest asset to fascism.
  
  That's the thing about the 2A-people, no matter how much you fantasize about taking on the government guerilla-style... with the two party system as it is, at least half of the people with guns will join the opposing side...
- The Great Man Theory take is that Hitler was saying and doing a kind of politics unique to his historical moment. He didn't stumble into the right beer hall at the right moment and echo the sentiments of tens of thousands of his disgruntled military peers but transformed the popular views of a nation. His rhetoric was brilliantly gripping, rather than just heavily circulated. His political maneuverings were expert rather than just stubbornly persistent. His military strategies were the product of genius rather than meth and recklessness.
  Go back in time and kill Hitler and you don't fix the post-war disparity between the WW1 Axis and Ally powers. You don't discourage re-militarization in a country overrun by US military contractors that saw massive profits in rearming the German state. You certainly don't mitigate the impacts of the post-1917 wave after wave of Red Scares or keep Henry Ford from circulating "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" in every Ford dealership on either side of the Atlantic.
  At best, you spare Charlie Chaplain the shame of shaving off his tiny mustache. But there's a strong reason to believe the post-Depression fascist wave that crested into WW2 was over-determined.
  
  You wouldn't stop WWII, but you would drastically change its nature.

He's basically an edge lord 4-channer, Nazi saluting to: "own the libs" is sort of on brand.
I don't think he's a dyed in the wool Führer-lover. I do think he's a hyper insecure, spoiled, man-child with enough ties to the far right to idolize "anti-social behavior" and think he's the hottest shit ever to pull off such a "based" stunt.
A poser; doing loser shit opening the door for someone/something much worse because his idiot brain thinks he's being cute.
- You basically just described every fascist/Nazi ever while arguing that he's not really a Nazi just "edgy." Let's not make this same mistake again, hyper insecure spoiled man-children with enough ties to the far right to idolize anti-social behavior ARE NAZIS.
  
  I'm not excusing behavior, far from it, but I'm not sure our modern problem children can be described with an 80 year old German political party. Far right, white supremest extremism is a now problem. These losers don't care if you call them a Nazi, it just means you "fell for it bro/got owned lib."
  Call them what they are, not what they want to be.
- I don’t think he’s a dyed in the wool Führer-lover.
  No, of course not. He's a dyed-in-the-wool Afrikkkaner. It's a Dutch/English strain of Fascism far more in line with the American brand than the German/Nordic Central European brand.
  A poser; doing loser shit opening the door for someone/something much worse because his idiot brain thinks he’s being cute.
  A professional sycophant and corrupt corporate hack who has made a cool trillion selling exploding cars, crashing spaceships, and non-existent subway systems. He's anything but a loser, as he's perfectly hacked the modern capitalist system.
  The Nazi pastiche he's adopted is intended to keep those super-sized government contracts and cheap private loans coming. Same reason he pays teams of pro-gamers to run his video game accounts and throws the biggest, most debauched orgies in Silicon Valley or Austin, TX. Same reason he nearly killed himself and Peter Thiel doing burnouts in a brand new McLauren.
  TrueAnon Podcast has a great three-part series "The Lamest Show On Earth" that takes a deep dive into Musk's background. Does a great job of laying out who this guy is and how he's successfully grifted his way to the pinnacle of the western business ziggurat. The most that can be said of him is that he loves to dominate other people. The explicit flavor of fascism is secondary.
- You're not wrong, a lot of these chuds, especially the tech bros, are obviously deeply insecure and have figured out they can't buy authenticity and coolness with money or power. That's where that brittle and mean bitterness they all have about other people living as they choose comes from. But it goes deeper than just emulating edgelords for kicks and covering up for their self-esteem issues.
  Doing it and avoiding any tangible punishment or long term fallout demonstrates what a powerful, untouchable person he is to the boot-licking right wing base. The whole goal is to build an in group of followers that is protected with power and privilege (which ensures their loyalty) and this is a signal to them that he can do just that.
  It's also a demonstration of unity in having a common enemy, and being willing to do anything to "win". Wether it's politics or a culture war, being willing to escalate is seen as a marker of strength. It's the only kind of political and social interaction they can understand.
  You're right that he's likely not a hard core admirer of Hitler. It's not about a particular political standpoint, it's about having the power to do whatever he wants and making sure people know it.

Wrote up a summary months ago (with reputable sources!) and warned about Nazis too and was permabanned from Lemmy news and politics for it.
Idk man, you can tell people stuff, but it's so hard for them to access what's real right now. There's a concerted online effort to suppress factual info.
https://lemmy.world/comment/13431373
- Someone who doesn't pick as many internet fights as me needs to post that to BestOfLemmy

The fact this is a debatable thing is the shame of humanity.
You know what's even worst? ADL.

They are not the baddies because of a Nazi salute. They are baddies because of shitload of other things. Which I'm starting to think the Nazi solute is a distraction from. I see so many posts about the salute and the "Gulf of America" and about assigned-at-conception gendering, and almost nothing about the executive orders that actually have implications.
- Finally, someone who gets it. I've been documenting all of this outrage on Lemmy over the last week and I'm gonna blog about how much real things we missed in the meantime.
  
  Gish Gallop.
  The opposition can't get anything done if you produce an unending stream of nonsense for them to counter.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop
- I get where you're coming from, but if someone can get away with doing things associated with a group that's shorthand in the West™ for the worst people in the world, I do think that's a problem too.

I'm starting to think that doing enough Ketamine to take down a racehorse just before giving a speech to the entire world's media, was probably not a good idea...
- Being a Nazi doesn't help either.
- That had nothing to do with ketamine, Musk is just a nazi.

Always suspected Captain Obvious had a scholar background.
- That's Dr. Obvious to you!

It’s not a full on Nazi salute as the words „Heil“, „Heil Hitler“, or „Sieg Heil“ aren’t used. However, it is a full on salute in its tradition. A right wing oligarch holding a victory speech espousing conservative revolution and a glorious future are in the vein of the fascism of old.
Trumpism doesn’t need to even express itself as fully fascist. The popular support, the support of the tycoons of industry, institutional acquiescence, lack of organized resistance, means he doesn’t need to go full authoritarian.
The ideological flexibility of Trumpism is enormous. Allegiance to Trump and MAGA is pretty much it. The rest of the ideology is dynamically formed by sycophants looking for Trump‘s favor. The post ironic attitude means immunity to value based criticism.
Elon Musk is a mix of minister for propaganda and court jester at the same time.
- I know I won't change your mind by disagreeing with you regarding the nazi salute. But I want to say that I am very grossed out by all the apologists defending him, even just a little bit.
  Just remember the quote, for evil men to succeed, good men just have to do nothing
  
  The apathetic centrist majority who think political illiteracy is the smart and sensible position are the biggest asset to fascism.
- It’s not a full on Nazi salute as the words „Heil“, „Heil Hitler“, or „Sieg Heil“ aren’t used.
  Oh, give me a break. There's no vocal component to the salute. It's a salute. You don't get to say "No, it only counts if I say the words while I'm wearing the uniform, and I have to be goose-stepping while I'm doing it, too".

No one cares. More important stuff is going on.

Logical fallacy: Argument from authority.
- There's a difference between an authority figure and someone with expertise in a subject. This individual isn't using a position of power to supplement his argument, he is just detailing his experience.
  People really need to stop treating logical fallacy like they're harry potter spells.
  
  There’s a difference between an authority figure and someone with expertise in a subject.
  By "authority" it means "authority on the subject". A well known and respected physicist would be an authority on the subject or in the field of physics. The issue necessarily isn't the lack of expertise but that the expertise shouldn't be trusted blindly but rather the findings or argument should be verified.
  Not that trusting the authorities on the subject is a bad idea especially when you are yourself not an expert. It's more of a thing when trying to study something, figuring out proof of stuff and so on when you need to be aware of the potential issues.
  
  (J) To emphasize the misuse of logical fallacies in recent history.
- Logical fallacy: Fallacy fallacy
- /s
- Look who learned the world fallacy today. Still you're using it wrong

Can someone, who believes this is a Nazi salute, explain to me what his motivation would be? I see what I see but I can't see it as a nazi thing unless he was intentionally sabotaging or trolling but it doesn't make sense contextually, unless I need to watch the whole damn thing to get it.
- Musk has been Nazi friendly for years now. Including some pretty antisemitic shit he's boosted.
  Then there were the swastikas in the SpaceX and Tesla breakrooms.
  Add to that, the fact the Musk is a dumbass who only thinks he's smart... And yeah. He thought he could get away with it.
  
  swastikas in the SpaceX and Tesla breakrooms
  I had not heard of this.
  https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/09/us-agency-sues-tesla-as-black-workers-report-swastikas-threats-and-nooses/
  
  He has gotten away with it, and will get away with it. What, you think investors will choose principals over money?
- The purpose of doing a Nazi salute so publicly, in the context of "saving civilization," does the purpose of a dog whistle but with the subtlety of an air horn. It's to send out acknowledgment to Nazis, a gesture of solidarity, that he's on their side and wants their support/approval. You would think this would be sabotaging the system if Naziism was in fact against their ideals and was bad optics. Nowadays the only excuse they need to be a Nazi is to "trigger the libs" so you'd be safe to say that nothing will come of this, people will shake their heads and wag their fingers but will still do business with him because money. So he's cashing in, he knows probably better than anyone that the Nazis have, in fact, successfully taken over the American government. Well done, Americans.
- The whole damn thing is like a 4 minute speech. Might be quicker to just watch the whole damn thing here: https://youtu.be/cjr0tAafxxE
  
  My point is that there isn't enough context or there is nothing in context that can explain it. Thanks for posting though for anyone who needs to see that.
- I think this is Elon trolling and pushing the boundaries of what can be done. It‘s being edgy and provocative, while obfuscating his true intentions.
  Elon used a fascist salute twice in public on stage to thunderous applause. Now he gets the support of the actual fascist right. However all he mainstream republicans in the audience who cheered now have to defend him as well. This will have no consequences for Elon. It was pure demonstration of his power to do whatever he pleases, both to his side and to the opposition. This also gives Elon attention and amuses him.
  Elon might call this salute the heart (of America) salute and repeat it in the future. Any other rightwinger who loves trolling the libs now has a role model. Salute from the heart, such a harmless gesture, and it gets the normies all upset. Do it as a laugh first and then for real over time.

I searched that exact tweet up and it was posted by three different accounts with the exact same wording.
Me thinks this is no real.
OP you got a source? Because if this guy is who he claims he is then all of his work is being called into question and I would be very curious to see what other incorrect takes he's got.
- Bro saying it wasn't a nazi salute 💀💀💀
  
  The source could still be totally bogus.
  This is why I hate Twitter, especially Twitter screenshots like this without even enough info to easily look up the user.
  
  It wasn't. But idk why I bother even attempting to have the conversation on this site. Y'all are convinced that it was and seemingly no other information can penetrate your thick skulls. At least some have had the decency admit they don't care about the truth and just want to be angry which is cringe but I respect the honesty.
  Edit: spelling.
- Communication is about both what you mean to say and what people hear. We can never be 100% sure what Elon meant to say, but for some reason a lot of people heard something concerning. But maybe it's just a small number of loud people online.
  But it's an easy enough thing to test. Just go onto work tomorrow and do the same motion a bunch of times and ask people what they "hear". If they mostly hear you just being friendly then you'll know you're correct. Easy peasy.
  
  Communication is 100% what the other person hears.
  
  What? Did you reply to the wrong comment or am I having a fuckin stroke?
- now now, this is no place for fact checking
  
  We unite against common enemy here, right after two minutes hate

It's also the Roman salute, which predates nazis and fascists.
And you gotta admit, it's a powerful gesture.
Also, he runs a company that makes spaceships. Which is pretty awsome.
Think about that while you work your shitty 9-to-5
- Fuck off wanna be Nazi.
  
  Hundred bucks says that they resemble their username
  
  You are like one of those little bugs that make noise at night. But instead of a melodious cheeping you just go "nazi nazi".
- Thanks you, we've now got another data point which shows that it only takes 27 hours for someone to get brainwashed
- This “Roman salute” is also a ridiculous claim. Why would musk to a Roman salute? How does Rome fit into anything?
  Then you just devolve into the common “well ur jealous because he’s rich” thing that people go for whenever an oligarch is criticized.
- And the swastika was a Hindu symbol, blah blah blah.
  Hanging dictators upside down is also a very powerful gesture.
  He doesn't run shit anymore, assuming that he's ever run something more than his mouth.
  He's just like one of those opportunistic diseases that attack a body with a compromised immune systems.
  And while I work my shitty job I'll think about how cool it is that I'm not a Nazi *shrugs
  PS: since he's Trump's propaganda arm, I think that he won't hang by his feet, he'll just bite into a cyanide pill to avoid prosecution.
- Reddit's leaking.
- And you gotta admit, it’s a powerful gesture.
  
  ?