Left Politicians Are Showing How to Respond to the Horrors in Israel and Palestine
Left Politicians Are Showing How to Respond to the Horrors in Israel and Palestine
Democratic socialist politicians like Cori Bush and Rashida Tlaib are right about the violence in Israel and Palestine: we should both be mourning civilian deaths and calling for an end to the Israeli occupation.
I will never understand why that's so difficult for some people. Calling on Israel to stop the illegal "settlements" in no way indicates support for Hamas.
To be 100% clear, the horrific murders and mutilations they've committed are inexusable and Hamas should be utterly dismantled, with every surviving member put on trial for war crimes. That can be true at the same time as it's true that Israel's illegal annexation of territory and treatment of Palestinians is wrong.
Please, can someone tell me they understand that? Am I taking crazy pills, here?
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I've even seen some people try claiming that the attack didn't happen and Israel must have fabricated it. My first thought was, "Really? We're going to 'Alex Jones/Sandy Hook' this?"
You can both want Palestinians to be treated fairly and be against Israeli citizens (among others) being slaughtered. Saying "Hamas was wrong to do this" doesn't mean you're saying "Israel is blameless in this situation."
Sadly, way too many people need there to be a Good Guy Who Never Does Wrong and a Bad Guy Who Never Does Right.
I will never understand why that’s so difficult for some people.
You're assuming everyone is discussing this in good faith. They're not. Some are weaponizing antisemitism so only unequivocal support for the Israeli government is welcome. I don't know why anyone would think doing that is a good idea, it's certainly not going to bring people around to the side of Netanyahu's government.
People need to understand that when you do something like that, it waters down both sides of the equation. You can call something "antisemitic" to get people to think that action is evil without looking too closely because they want to distance themselves as much as possible from the evil label. But it also can make people lose the association between "antisemitic" and "evil" because they agree with whatever is being called "antisemitic" and think "if this is antisemitism, it must not be that bad".
And then there's the ones who think "if you're going to call me evil, then I might as well just be evil".
You aren't crazy. This must have been what it was like being a sane, thinking person right after 9/11 and during the run up to the Afghanistan and Iraq invasions and seeing everyone around you descend into psychotic, genocidal bloodlust. That's par for the course for conservatives but it is genuinely horrifying to see it coming from liberals and people on the left.
I remember that sinking feeling and realizing that our culture was going to use 9/11 as an excuse to act really terrible. I’m from the western US and had no cultural or personal ties with anyone east of the Mississippi, so I had less of an emotional connection to the actual terrible events. Nothing has been quite the same since in our culture.
It's only difficult for some. On one hand the Israeli government purposely equates Jews as people with Israel as a nation to deflect criticism. Hell even shady Israeli spy companies like the ones behind the pegasus exploit followed about the reporters from uToronto to try to get them to make anti-Semitic or anti-zionist remarks so as to discredit their reporting on a government sanctioned hacker group that sells to dictators. On the other hand actual anti-semites hide their anti-semitism in criticism of Zionism. Which is how you get gas the Jews chants at pro-palestine rallies.
All I've heard are people that don't support either group.
The only "support" I heard were from people claiming others had support for either. It was all third person.
Are there really people who support either?
Sadly, yeah. I've seen a few on Lemmy, which disappoints me. I mean, it's not that hard:
- Don't support targeting civilians and cutting people's heads off.
- Don't support illegal settlements and systematic oppression.
Why is that difficult? Why is it so goddamn difficult to say both are wrong in different ways? Supporting Israel's right to exist free from terrorism against innocent civilians is not identical to supporting illegal expansion and the oppression of the Palestinian people. And supporting Palestine's right to exist free from tyranny and encroachment is not identical to supporting Hamas, which is a horrendous terrorist organization that is just as awful to the Palestinians as they clearly are to civilian Israelis.
Just look further down in this thread. You can see one person justifying Hamas and saying "slave rebellions require the wanton killing of their masters" and another justifying Israel's actions by conflating all of Palestine with Hamas.
It's the rare case where there are actually a nontrivial group of people taking what would be otherwise a strawman position. And that makes it incredibly difficult for us to discuss this like adults. This conflict is the perfect storm of centuries of geopolitics, anti semitism, anti Muslim sentiment, and nationalism.
The only good people here are the innocent civilians, and they're the ones being brutally murdered and bombed and taken hostage.
Nope. I got some if you’d like though. The nuances of a situation seem to be lost on a lot of people. You can disapprove of the Israeli government’s actions (or lack thereof) and not be pro hamas or antisemitic. Unless you ask the internet at large, I suppose.
Republicans don't understand nuance. Every conflict is a football game. Either you support the good guys or you're a despicable other team fan.
your 100% right.what hamas did is wrong but isreal stoked the flames that brought the attack
even if hamas didn't exist there would be a similar organization doing something similar. Turning Gaza into a giant prison means a gang will pop up to enforce rules and they will build up new angry recruits every time israel kills a protestor, day by day, week by week.
One of the problems is that there's a constant cycle of violence. Palestinians, feeling oppressed by Israel, launch some sort of attack (rockets, firing on civilians, bombs, etc). Innocent people are killed and Israelis react in fear and anger. This pushes right wing Israeli politicians into power which results in bloody responses directed at the Palestinians. Repeat again and again with each side's attack being justified by the other side's latest action.
(And, note, I'm not saying "the Palestinians started this" above. I just need SOMEWHERE to start the illustration and recounting the full 100 or so year history of this conflict would be way too long.)
Then, add to the mix, foreign interference. On the Palestinian side is Iran who doesn't want human rights for Palestinians. No, they just want Israel attacked and Jews killed. So they'll push for attacks like the recent one even if it will hurt, rather than help, the Palestinian cause.
On the Israeli side are evangelical Christians from the US. They think Jesus will come back if Israel, run by Jews, is attacked. They've got the "run by Jews" part and peace would stop an attack that would bring Jesus back. They do things like fund the settlers who take over Palestinian land.
I don't pretend to know the solution. If I did, I'd be a world class diplomat - something I definitely am not. However, I can both understand why each side does what it does while condemning actions that I think cross the line. The whole thing is a twisted mess and anyone who thinks one side is all good and the other side is all bad is vastly oversimplifying the situation.
I think the one point of nuance that's continually lost (and ironically, you glossed over it as well) is the Israeli treatment of Palestinians. They're doing more than just "annexing" and "being mean". They've been murdering and disappearing Palestinian civilians for decades.
I will never understand why that’s so difficult for some people. Calling on Israel to stop the illegal “settlements” in no way indicates support for Hamas.
It's because Zionists have enjoyed complete control over the narrative for decades.
They're in overdrive right now trying to regain that control, and it isn't working.
Okay, but if one of the two, and only two, groups that some demagogue has helpfully divided the world into for me is bad, then the other must be good, right? That's how the world works, right?
Nope. However I think it's important to recognize that desperation breeds radicalization. And Israel creates fertile ground for this.
Proportionally speaking, at least people are publicly talking about how shitty Israel is for now, which is better than before since nobody cared about the many dead Palestine civilians over the years. In that sense, the PA get to actually have a conversation in the media while Hamas can be the fall guy.
Reddit worldnews has had a live thread about Russian invasion of Ukraine since February last year. They didn't have one for the Israeli occupation.
This works both ways also. Israelis feel like they are constantly under threat of attack from rockets, bombs, and now raids that kill civilians. This increases support for hard line, right wing politicians who will act swiftly and harshly. Temporary anger over the attack (which, to be clear, is justified), can result in actions that cross the line.
It's a vicious cycle. Israelis feel attacked and so support right wing politicians who promise them safety. Then the Palestinians are attacked and turn to terrorist groups like Hamas to strike back. Repeat again and again and again. Neither side is willing to back down because they have to get revenge for the latest attack even though this revenge will cause another attack.
I like you acknowledge both wrongs, but you mustn't have spent much time looking at post replies and comments if you think the people decrying the implicit supporters of Hamas are the problem.
I think the thing that's putting an incredibly sour taste in a lot of people's mouths is that anyone who decries the wanton slaughter and rape of innocent civilians by a terrorist group is absolutely bombarded with replies from blindly pro palestinian comments saying things like:
"Israel asked for this"
"Those people shouldn't have been there if they didn't want to get raped and killed"
"People have a right to self defense"
"Look at this map which doesn't reflect the whole story of this conflict, implying that it's justified"
"Freedom fighters fighting against oppression/apartheid/open air jail"
Paraphrased obviously but this is what it reads like. It's hard not to see people posting that stuff whilst bodies are still warm on the ground instead of condemning the barbaric attacks as not implicitly supporting Hamas and the disgusting crimes they just committed. There is no "but" after decrying these attacks. They are unjustifiable and inexcusable.
Obviously Israel needs to stop creating settlements in the west bank, but bringing that up relentlessly like a bot farm of brain damaged propagandists doesn't help the cause. It feels the same as Russian trolls claiming Ukraine is run by Nazis, or MAGA people taking about some laptop. Nothing gets taken seriously when it's clearly a one sided megaphone style discussion.
Making it look like any pro palestinian discourse is actually just people supporting their preferred football team doesn't help create dialogue and a future peace. You're just creating an echo chamber which to less invested observers seems to be celebrating rape and murder of civilians.
The problem is the wording. If you say "To be clear, the horrific murder and the mutilation they've commited are inexcusable and Israel military and government, or Zionist, should be utterly dismantled, with every surviving member put on trial for war crimes" you would be labeled antisemitic, terrorist, and this might be consider hate speech which be law if your employer find out, they can fire you. And if you are a head of State, a politician, a journalist, most likely you will be forced to right an apology, and declare "Israelis" have god giving rights to the land..
Hamas's victims blood is on the hands of Israel. Hamas didn't pop up from nowhere. This is all on Israel.
The problem is that you're victim blaming. Imagine that Jews had done the exact same things Hamas has done to the Nazis. Would you be right to criticize the Jews for how they behaved towards their oppressors? No. Past a certain level we should not give one shit what lengths an oppressed class goes to to end their oppression. Short of literal genocide, Palestine will be the good guys here no matter what they do, because Israel is doing literal genocide to them.
The only successful slave revolt in history just happens to be the one where the slaves wantonly murdered their enslavers. It is a lot more moral to go to extreme lengths to ensure your oppressors are defeated, than it is to take the high road and lose. The high road is for cowards who would rather do what is easy than do what is necessary.
Nah, mate. Killing random civilians isn't the same as killing slave masters. Random people on the street aren't the ones to blame. Needless blood is counterproductive and just fuels hatred. Being designated as a terrorist org means the slim possibility of receiving foreign assistance is reduced to zero.
Put yourself in the shoes of an Israeli boy. Maybe ten years old or so. One day, a Hamas attack kills your cousin, your best friend, and your five-year-old sister, as well as both of your parents. You survive because you happened to be elsewhere at the time. You're not a soldier. You're not one of the people responsible for Israel's oppression of Palestine. You're literally just some kid.
But in ten years, you better believe you're going to be an IDF soldier, and one of the bad ones, because you want revenge. Every night, in your sleep, you see your parents' corpses. And your sister's. Someone literally cut her head off, and you see it, every night. And you are hellbent and determined to make them pay.
Now... Has Hamas' murder of your little sister accomplished anything good for them? For their goals? Is it practical? Is it pragmatic? Will it move the world closer to a free Palestine?
No. Of course it won't. It's counterproductive. It will make Israel literally level Gaza. It will empower the hardliners, the ones who pushed for illegal settlements in the first place. They will be fueled by the combined rage of tens of thousands of people just like you, a little boy who lost everything because Hamas decided civilians were legitimate targets for murder, rape, mutilation, and torture.
The moral high road isn't for cowards, it's for people who aren't idiots. You don't win by taking the low road in a situation like this, you just make both sides angrier, more scared, and more entrenched. It accomplishes literally nothing that you profess to want accomplished. The low road is for fools.
Horseshit.
When hundreds of civilians are murdered by terrorist, that's not the moment to talk about rewarding the terrorists, which is exactly what they are asking Israel to do.
To be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR: Israel has offered peace deals and two state solutions many times before. Palestinians always walk away.
So this should be the moment that progressive turn to the PALESTINIANS and say, time for YOU to end the occupation by taking a peace deal that isn't your favorite, because this terrorism shit is 1000% evil and unacceptable.
This is the same argument Republicans use about gun control and mass shootings. Can't talk about it because it's happening now. Makes so much sense right?
No dude, you're wrong. If it were at all possible for Palestinians to walk away from their oppressors, they would have. I don't know the details of whatever was offered, but I can only assume it was "Palestine leaves their land forever and unconditionally surrenders to Israel's demands". That is not a peace deal, that is extortion.
What would you say the Palestinians should give? They lost everything.
Should they give the open air prison that Gaza is? Or the web of bantustans that the West Bank became?
They already had everything ripped from them and every day they loose yet another bit of territory to Israeli settlers.
The only peace deal Israel wants is the same they've been enforcing for half a century: that the Palestinians pack their shit and leave their ancestral land for good for Israel to settle.
Just as a little reality check for all Hamas “fans” out here which are actually comparing them to Israel. The Hamas is founded on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which are a fairytale full of antisemitism and proven, false statements about Jews and how they are responsible for every bad thing that happens during the centuries and their diabolical plot for world domination (of course one of the favorite lecture of the Nazis)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
Those idiots are really believing this fairytale and they use it to justify the murder of innocent people and Jews in general. So the next time you step in in defense of the Hamas or when you compare them to Israel, keep in mind that they are doing this because they believe in some antisemitic fairytale written by a crazy Russian back in the old days…they are basically Scientology only more degenerated and more violent.
Israel has made it clear that it will not accept peace. Israel at no point in time was ever willing to accept a two-state solution. Israel and Hamas are terrorist organizations.
The difference between Israel and Hamas is that Israel is extremely well-funded and serves with consent of the governed whereas Hamas is extremely poorly funded and less than half of the population was born when they were "elected" and even fewer of them participated in that election.
Israel has offered peace deals and two state solutions many times before. Palestinians always walk away.
Why do you people keep saying this like it matters? Have you ever considered it's what's in those deals that is important?
Take a look at the Native Americans for an example of a colonized people accepting their colonizers' terms.
Sounds like you're looking for a final solution to this Palestinian problem.
Go ahead, say it with your chest.