How do you find meaning in life?
What do you keep living for? Is there a specific person, goal, or idea that you work for? Is there no meaning to life in your opinion?
Context: I've been reading Camus and Sartre, and thinking about how their ideas interact with hard determinism.
I think “What is the meaning of (my) life?” is not a question that we should be focusing on. It assumes that there is meaning to life. Neither is saying “Life is meaningless,” as it assumes exactly that. Both approaches presupposes an answer.
I'd rather think about "What can I do today/tomorrow/this week/this year/in this life?" That is a lot more digestible than chasing a meaning, or dismissing what could be meaningful about my actions.
I'm already here, so.... What is it under my control that I can do something about? What can I do about it? Something along those lines.
PS:
The overall tone of my response might be nihilist, or having shades of stoicism, but I am personally biased towards Epicureanism (not the present-day meaning, but the more classical meaning) which gives emphasis to ataraxia, or put very loosely, that state of contentedness. It's not about avoiding pain and preferring (temporary) pleasure, but rather a more stable state absent of pain and having pleasure that is brought about by mindful actions. I am not exactly learned in this so please take my words with a pinch of salt (or several).
I'm religious so that's pretty much figured out for me lol
Which
*Witch
Meaning must be generated, not found.
Logically I am a determinist and a nihilist. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.
But I can't live life like that. Life is lived through feelings and it feels like I have free will. So I feel meaning by contributing positively and that my choices in life matter.
So, I contribute, try to do good, be helpful and nice to people, and also fulfill some hedonistic desires such as good food, lovemaking, shows, etc.
I live to be a good person. Figuring out what that means is a lot of reading, reasoning, and experimentation. I'm not sure you even need to justify wanting to be a good person, but maybe it is good to do good.
Life is for two things. 1. Experience 2. Love.
I think I won at life.
I want to see my planted apple tree bear fruit for the first time (it's looking good this year so far!), and then I want to try splicing in a branch of my neighbours cherry tree, and then I want to keep building gradually to have a mutant tree with all kinds of fruit throughout the season. I'll be the creator of my own Tree of Life.
Small goals, small joys, small triumphs - it's what'll make my life grand, I believe.
There is none. You get used to it.
Ive been lucky to have discovered Stoicism early in life and that what has been driving me for decades now!
To put it shortly Stoicism focuses on self growth with things like identifying natural human virtues (need for knowledge, justice, temperance, courage) and focusing life around improving those. This is expressed through a princicle called dichotomy of control which says that there are things that are out of our control like death that we shouldn't focus on and things that are like natural virtues that are something we can do to improve upon.
It also deconstructed and included all of the cool contemporary ideas like mindfulness and being cosmopolitan two millenia ago so its a really great suite of natural philosophies that survived the test of time.
Stoicism is also low key Idealist as in your natural perception of your own virtues and state is the only real thing that matters which is what makes this ideology so much more freeing. You don't judge yourself against some mystical ideal but to your own perception of purpose and growth.
It's an easy, frictionless and a highly rewarding way to live :)
It's interesting, I think I've tried engaging with Stoicism before, but it feels to me that it kind of ignores how sometimes the romantic should take control? I can't remember which Stoicist (Epictetus I think?) said that we should be so detached that the death of a child should feel like a glass breaking, but I don't think I would be able to rationalise and internalise that personally. Do you think there's space for strong feelings in Stoicism?
That's a common misunderstanding and Stoicism is not about detachment. The quote you're referring is mostly a thought exercise to illustrate that dwelling on past is unproductive even in extreme circumstances.
Though contemporary Stoicism acknowledges importance of ritual and grief but it still has to be within reasonable context of dichotomy of control as in you can't change the outcome no matter how hard you grief and you're just losing finite minutes of your life but you can spend this time to fairly honor the event and memories.
Temperance is a key virtue here and its heavily inspired by Aristotel's Golden Mean which says that extremes are really inefficient and should be avoided at all times.
As for strong feelings - Stoicism has nothing against them either. Justice is one of the virtues and its really impossible to get to a just conclusion without strong feelings like sympathy. Though, just like Buddhism, Stoics practice mindfulness and have to choose to go to strong feelings not obey. This is again due to dichotomy of control where thoughts and feelings just appear and we can't do anything here to stop that but we can choose how we react once we process them!
Stoicism is a very powerful framework cause it doesn't really tell you what to do exactly just gives you a logical framework based on human nature. It doesn't mean you becoming a robot - quite the opposite - you should become more human not being hijacked by unfair processes.
I'm no well read philosopher, but the idea that life has a meaning is repulsive to me. It implies that there is a correct state of affairs, and introduces the possibility that you've done something wrong, that you failed to fulfill some purpose. Nuts to that, there are no wrong choices, besides the obvious ones like murder and not brushing your teeth
Well mate I'm sorry to say you just funded a new philosophy school AND a new religion called shiny teeth.
Jokes apart, I agree 100 with you and the concept that only the person themselves can decide what is the purpose of their life. And 11 out of 10 times it won't make sense to anyone else, so no point in taking it too seriously.
I have so many goals man. I wanna travel the world, meat new people, stay in one of those hostels or that website where you can work to stay. I wanna scuba dive, rock climb, surf, run marathons, hikes and all sorts of stuff before I get too old to do anything fun.
meat new people
Found the 65 year old planning a trip to SEA
I'm not sure if believe in a "meaning" to life, but I'm here for a good time. I'm married (2nd time) with 3 kids. I work to support us and pay the bills. But why do I keep living? Why not kill myself in leiu having a cup of coffee? Because death is inevitable and if it's going to happen anyway, I can use the brief time here to experience all that I can.
I figure the Universe is going to go on with or without me and there's not a thing I can do to change anything. But I'm not here to change the Universe, I'm here so it can change me. I'm a bird soaring through an infinite void with a brief passing through a bright window. Why not appreciate the view while it lasts? And if I can, why not try to make anyone's else's brief time out of the void a good time too? Life is absurd, existence is chaos, and it's all just funny as absolute shit.
I think really, there's no reason for anything but ice cream is good, hikes in the woods are rad, hanging out with pets and friends is joy. Why stop doing that just because nothing matters?
This is my philosophy. I credit George Carlin for summarizing it with “People who see life as anything more than pure entertainment are missing the point.”
Two phrases I like for this:
There isn’t the meaning of life, there is your meaning of life. This realistic approach recognizes our constantly shifting values and how radically different it can be per person.
And of course Herbert’s
The mystery of life isn't a problem to be solved, but a reality to experience
I think B.B. King has the solution:
I've got a good mind to give up on living and go shopping instead.
Yep. Riding With The King. He knows when the going gets tough the tough go shopping.
This is one of my cats, do you think she's looking for meaning?
Life just... is. Don't look for a deeper meaning. Enjoy what you have.
Adorable picture :) Unfortunately my cat has found a purpose - being a bastard and knocking over anything she can, and loudly demanding attention at 2am. She's still wonderful of course!
First, great choice in reading (Im a fan of Camus as well).
As for the meaning of life thing...
Thats the neat part. You don't.
Thats why in absurdist fiction like Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy the answer to life, the universe and everything is 42. Its not supposed to make sense and the universe is under no obligation to do so for you (the books even postulate that the universe does not want anyone to know so if someone figures it out it winks out of existance and replaced itself with something weirder, some scientists think this has happened before).
That goes back to Camus point about the remedies for the bleakness of early-mid 20th century philosophy. He proposed three options, Nhilism, a leap of faith (looking at you Kierkegaard), or absurdism, the last being what the doctor perscribes, but also requires the most effort because you have to find your question to the ultimate answer your self... Or not, who cares. Lets go spend some time by a lake that thinks its a gin & tonic.
I hope that I can come around to the absurdist perspective sooner or later, it does seem quite appealing to me, but I'm still yet to be convinced by Camus' argument that the rebellion against the absurd has any more value than your other options. How would you say you find that sort of value?
I’m not the original poster, but their perspective resonates with mine quite well.
We are biological beings of great fragility and complexity. I subscribe to some ‘spiritual’ ideas, but that stops when we get to the persistence of consciousness after death.
Absurdism simply recognizes our biology. Laughter releases feel-good chemicals. It is our refuge from the inexorable grind of raw-dogging reality.
If I had to choose a religion, it would be Bokononism.
“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.”
This is it. You die and you are gone, gone, gone. Make every day count and don’t waste time bargaining with an imaginary god for a preferred place in her cinematic universe.
It’s not grim. It’s extremely freeing. ‘Now’ is all there is.
Make every day count
But that's such horrible pressure.
But those days where you just relax and enjoy yourself count as good days so that's ok too.
I have felt that once upon a time. But since there is no external meaning, I have decided our main purpose is to fart around a lot. I greatly enjoy those days when I can just be, without pressure to produce something.
Maybe that’s inner peace?
By multiplying 21 by 2
I multiply 6 by 9.
Woah woah, not so loud! The psychologists might hear you.
Multiply 14023 by 3
About 20 years ago, I was walking through a city centre with a friend, on the way to catch a train. A couple of Mormons tried to stop us, asking, "Have you ever thought about the purpose of life?"
Barely breaking stride, I shouted out, "Hot sweaty man sex!"
I don't consider that to be the purpose of life1, but remembering the look on their faces helps keep me grounded whenever I'm inclined to consider questions that cannot be answered.
That said, my resolution to the conflict between free will and determinism is to assume assume that 'truth' operates on a principle of equivalence. That's to say, if two models generate the equivalent outcomes, they are equivalently 'true'. The universe we observe could have deterministic rules that give rise to the same observable outcomes as one in which we have absolute free will, in which case the two models are equivalent. It would make no sense to endow one with a greater truth than the other.
That's a slightly difference definition of 'truth' than is commonly accepted, but it works for me.
1: It's just a nice bonus.
I don't think I necessarily agree with the way you present truth, but it's an interesting line of thinking. I do definitely agree with your opinion on the bonuses life has to offer!
shrug
Foods pretty good, lot of things i haven't tried yet to look forward to. I like hearing/reading/seeing new stories, too.
Honest to god, the most tangible and practical definition that I've gotten to, so far, is that meaning comes about, when you strive to do good. Simple as that. Sure, there are a lot of ways to do 'that' in the world, but it should all work to some degree.
Strive to make the world better and to do good.
That's really interesting, where would you say you source your idea of good from? I think I personally have a hard time grounding any sense of morality as I'm not sold on the idea that someone could be truly responsible for an action. I don't mean this as a criticism, I am just interested in your viewpoint for what is good or bad.
For me personally it's because I'm selfish. There are no fully altruistic acts, but "doing good" makes me feel good, and I enjoy feeling good, so why not? 😃
Good counter question, thanks.
I am still trying to figure out, in what way I can know that something is actually true and good, besides that is just sounds and feels true. It's not certain that I am the right agent to decide what is true in the moment. I am partly an animal, after all.
I understand light from the sun, compared to darkness, and I understand how saying something can reflect the real world as factually true, compared to something that is not, ie. telling a lie.
But, that 'being good is a virtue', and what 'good' and 'virtue' mean whan applied, is not so clear.
I clearly have a sufficient and functional understanding of the above, (innate, instinctual and/or learned?), which is why my first comment still works, but I feel like I should be able to verify that my idea of 'good' is still true.
Do you people have any good pointers to that?
The LLM out here tryna parse morality lol love your user name.
Wack of me to comment here but I’d like to hear more about your logic for the perpetual passing of accountability! It’s true enough that our lived experience is basically dependency hell. I guess for chiming in I owe you my “source of good” haha it changes the further you zoom out but it starts at collective harm reduction and burrows all the way down to showing up for the people you care about.
Even when they lack the perspective to see themselves as the perpetrator. We roll that boulder up the hill lol
I'm going to throw a trigger warning on this next part just in case:
You might be underselling entertainment to yourself here. Experiencing creation and your own interpretation of these creations is pretty fucking magical when you think about it.
Meaning is something imposed on reality by consciousness, not something necessarily inherent to existence itself. I am here because here is where I am. What that means to me is that I should have a good time while the opportunity persists because all evidence seems to insist that the chance will not last forever.
So, eat. Be merry. Protect that which moves me and those who can not protect themselves. Help others to do the same. That's the meaning of life to me.
You climb the tallest mountain you can find, and you ask the old man sitting there.
To which the old man replies: "Man, what the fuck is up with all of you people coming up here to ask me what the meaning of life is? I moved to the top of the tallest mountain I could find to get away from you all!"
If the true meaning of life is to move to the tallest mountain and isolated yourself from everyone and everything then I don't really want to know it thanks gramps
There are three ways to look at the meaning of life.
The realistic: the is no meaning of life, no grand idea behind it.
The biological: the meaning of life is to procreate.
The philosophical: The meaning of life is to make the world better than when you arrived.
Since the first two are boring to talk about, I'll skip right to the third, making the world better than it was when you arrived.
In my case, I am an IT guy, I solve other people's problems and enable them to do their job, making their day slightly better.
I am also a hobby photographer, who share photos for free on the internet, people seem to like them so I have made their day slightly better as well.
Perhaps I can make your day slightly better by linking my Pixelfed: https://metapixl.com/Stoy
Those owl pictures definitely made my day better, cheers :))
Great photos, really. You have a good eye for details, and I like the 'appreciation-snapshot' type of photography, like with the Icom IC-R6, the throttle of the steam ship, the lynx, and the lights in the front landing gear of the airplane.
It reminds me of those moments where you look around, and you notice a pleasing or interesting detail which catches your attention. The more of those moments I have, the more I appreciate the life and the positive in the world we created.
People have put a lot of hours into all the good we have in the world, and sometimes I am reminded through a detail.
I did this kind of self-exploration at one point. I used to find all my meaning through work, which I later realized was leaving me feeling unfulfilled. So I lowered my professional ambitions in favor of focusing on the relationships I had with close friends and family.
Then I changed genders. And then those relationships got completely fucked up. And now I feel like I have nothing left to live for.
So I guess if you're looking for meaning, my advice would be to pick something that doesn't depend on other people.
Have experiences and respect other life. That's really it.
The Earth created lifeforms that can understand the universe. Even if there are other conditions out there that can create life like that, it's not common. There is unfathomable empty space between planets and their moons. To say nothing of between planets or stars or galaxies.
Good news! You're one of these rare combinations of matter that can understand the universe. In a real way, we are the universe trying to understand itself. Scientists explore it in a deep way, and should be respected for that, but you don't need a PhD to participate. A single celled organism who figured out better ways to swim in its little pool helped the universe understand itself. The first human to taste a strawberry helped the universe understand itself. Have experiences.
There's a lot of other life also participating in this, and they should be respected, too.
Isn't the idea of a meaning of life irrelevant if you believe that the universe is deterministic?
Well sure, I can say that objectively it is pointless to try and give my life meaning - but I think that it is still part of the human condition to try and strive for some purpose. More of an emotional need than a philosophical need would be the way I would frame it.
I keep living at this point simply because God wants me alive. If He didn't, He would have killed me by now. When I was in a really dark place (I'm doing better now), I realised that killing myself was pointless, because if it was my time to die, God would take me from this life regardless. So God must still have a plan and uses for me and thus, I should still be alive, and that's meaning enough for the fact that my body continues to operate.
I've got a lot of respect for theists, and would truly love to be convinced of this sort of perspective. Thanks for bringing it to the table!
Not to bully your belief here but how would you justify this with the fact that God allows many really bad people to live? Just curious of understanding this mindset and I hope this doesn't offend you.
Quite a few reasons I can give:
Through bad people, good can still happen. For example, the passion narrative. Bad people caused the execution of Jesus, but through that, we believe we can get salvation
Some people got a positive opportunity out of wars, COVID, etc (The lockdown may have saved me, it pulled me out of a dark place)
God is patient. Bad people can still repent and come to God.
Bad things on earth are actually eternally insignificant if you believe that eventually all of it will be wiped out, which plays into the patience aspect. Just say you're in heaven for two thousand years, you're not really going to worry anymore about 100 years you spent on earth that were absolutely horrible.
These are just my thoughts on the matter. A lot of people do have varied responses to the "problem of evil"
I tried to justify this (if one insists on the existence of a god), through the argument that dangerous and bad things exist in nature as well, such as storms, lightning, floodings, earthquakes, and chimps that go to war with each other etc. and likewise, violent and bad things exist among humans.
However, I cant really convince myself that it's comparable. Actual evil did not really exist before be came along and started torturing each other. (The church and christians have been through many iterations of hard questions and tough answers to their own riddles, and overall, I think it has been a sum positive for humanity, in trying to explain, and to figure out the question of evil in general.)
So no, I don't have a, from the hip, justification from god, why evil people would still exist. Perhaps the world just is a better place, with snakes in it, than without. It gives us something good to do?
I can however confidently state that really bad people have been here among humanity many times before, and they have all, in one way or another, left again, and somehow we manage to sustain a world, that is continuously improving and trying to become a better and better place. Getting rid of bad people, snakes, and natural dangers.
I know that there are serious crises and problems we still have to solve, but we tend to forget all the past evils that we have defeated. We are not being actively overrun by mongols from the east, and not every family loses several small children before they reach the age of 5. Most people have enough, and we still keep working to make sure that fewer and fewer people will suffer in the future.
What do you keep living for?
I want to see what happens in the future.
Is there a specific person, goal, or idea that you work for?
My primary goal is to retire and not have to work anymore.
Is there no meaning to life in your opinion?
There is no external meaning. People can provide their own meaning.
Zoom in. I don't care much for the troubles in the world. I vote, but that's that. I care for my family and friends and for my personal development. In that order. Lately it's been mostly the latter. That is all right for a while, but eventually I'll have to put things back in the right order.
I'm looking forward to lunch tomorrow
Meaning: try to do no harm, give love where I can, and hopefully leave the world a little better where I touched upon.
Why I keep living (bit of a TW):
Also experiencing video games.
Yeah I think I'm in the same boat as you here to be honest, as I can still acknowledge that a negative emotional impact on those I care about also negatively impacts my emotions, so that provides me with some grounding in the topic. Loose grounding though, especially if you take the idea that there is no meaning to its limits.
That’s fair.
I’m of the worldview that while technically there is no “meaning,” doesn’t mean there’s no effect (even if it’s infinitesimal). Just because there’s no purpose in pushing a ball across a table, it still moves when you touch it.
It also places, in philosophical framing, that humans are the creators and arbiters of the concept of our own “meaning.” The fact that we ask of it, and in some cases find there is no such thing from external forces, suggests that it comes from us. However you go from there is the beauty of the notion.
Bit of a side tangent lol but thank you for sharing and engaging :) /gen
Do you have memories as a kid where it was pure fun and no expectations? I honestly think that there are 4 types of personalities that people lean towards:
Dogs, dog owners, dog guardians and cats
The dogs and the dog/cat guardians look for meaning in their life.
I don't think life has any kind of inherent meaning; it simply arose from random physical processes when the conditions were right and took off from there. I keep living mostly because it's kind of the default, and because I don't want to hurt others with my death.
It feels like a paradox to me: the meaning of life is to find meaning in life.
For me “it’s complicated”. I live with passive suicidal ideation on a daily basis. Some days are better than others, but generally speaking I don’t want to actually kill myself. However, the idea of being dead does not bother me as it ought other people.
That being said, I do stick around especially for my two sons. I could not bring myself to not be a part of their lives; especially right now as they are 12 and 10. I don’t want to rob them of their father, and I do want to see them through to when they have a life of their own and have their own family (whatever that may look like for them).
As for meaning in life: ultimately everything we do is only for the living. When I die, my life only matters to the people whom I was closest (my kids). Beyond that, who cares right? I have no delusions that I’ll be remembered by anyone else.
But I do have other things I’d like to achieve: find another love of my life, travel the world more, complete as much of my bucket list as possible (e.g. skydiving, bungee jumping, scuba diving, etc).
When I was young, raised religious, there was an intense focus on finding purpose in life, almost as if there is no value to life itself without some end goal.
After leaving religion and superstition behind everything that is left is remarkable, fascinating, and beautiful. There's no need for life to have a purpose, a sunset doesn't need to clock in to work, a rock doesn't have an active role to perform but it's still fine for it to exist, us too.
I used to wish there was done grander purpose, but have you ever considered where that ends? Say you do have an ultimate purpose on earth, to collect all the smeeshmups, you do it and then what? Say your purpose is to be a good little Christian person and go to heaven, then what? Glorify some monkey with an anus for eternity because he agreed you did a good job? Yikes
I definitely don't buy into there being some big thing that everyone should be working for in their life, but I do think that it's good for humans to develop meaning and purpose on a personal level - we need some drive in life or everything is just arbitrary and you have no reason to for one option to be preferable over another, if truly there is nothing that matters.
Yeah "grand purpose" is almost exclusively for losers. Why is my current purpose not good enough? It reeks of snake oil upsell
I think one of the best phrases I've heard from the atheist community is "Do No Harm". Very similarly, the Golden Rule, which almost every civilization has a version of, says "Do to others that which you would have them do to you". Beyond that, there are no rules one must abide by. If you would wish others to stand up for you when you cannot, then do so for them. If you wish that people would help you when you are in need, do so to them.
Ultimately, you create your own meaning from the little things you find joy in and if you follow the Golden Rule then you can help others do the same.
I don't think there is meaning. I've never read Camus or Sartre and don't really know what determinism is (quick read on Wikipedia, I think I agree with it?), but
I keep living because it makes me feel good for the most part, and because the thought of dying makes me feel bad for the most part.
Life is what you make it. You get one life so make it count in some way. I ain't the boss of you, you decide what that is, just do something.
I like to learn and grow. I've settled into a good career and a family so now I'm thinking about projects I can take on. And I'll see where those take me.
Meanwhile, try to live a life that gets celebrated when you're gone.
I ask myself this simple question: Are you making things better? I find meaning in helping others, and this is my guiding principle. I hope that when my time comes, I can say that I did make things better, that I did help others.
Yeah, I mean, ultimately meaning in life is what you make of it and the ideals you believe in. That varies from person to person. For me, it's those nights I can go outside and look at the dark night sky with a sea of light from other worlds, dream about going to them, and remembering how small our world is, and how much beauty there is in the universe beyond our own homes and lives. But, it's not that for everyone, sometimes it's the small stuff, a nice hot bath, or a really great cup of tea, or just going out in the sunshine on a cool crisp morning.
Ultimately, there isnt a right answer to this question. But I think it gets at the heart of it just by asking the question, life is what you make out of it.