Homeowner baffled after washing machine uses 3.6GB of internet data a day
A home automation and tech enthusiast stumbled upon the anomaly while troubleshooting issues with his home network.
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This particular homeowner is baffled that anyone would buy a washing machine that needs an internet connection. I'm all for smart appliances, but a smart washing machine is a solution in search of a problem.
I guess it can notify you via your cell phone when a load is done. I could see that having value.
Mine plays a loud jingle when it's done, which seems to be enough for me.
Yup. There are two situations here:
If I'm at home and won't hear the sound for some reason, I'll just set an alarm on my phone. My washing machine tells me how long it'll take, so there's no guesswork here.
My washing machine tells me how long it'll take, so there's no guesswork here.
Washing machines exist that are smarter than just running a fixed program. They adjust the program, and thus duration, based om how dirty the clothes are. The same goes for dryers that look at the actual humidity of the clothes to determine if they’re finished.
Sure, and if I'm off by a few minutes, that's totally fine. I honestly don't need to know the moment my clothes are done, it can wait 20-30 minutes usually. In general, a laundry run takes an hour, plus whatever soak time I choose.
So I really don't need any network access. I guess it's fine if others want it, but I see it as a liability. If it connects to a network, that's a security vulnerability (don't want a laundry DOS) and another thing to break. Ideally, every model could optionally ship without it.
Hahaha, but why?
I've used the shortest cycle, on cold, for 30+ years, with less than half the detergent "recommended". Clothes are always clean.
And my clothes get dirty. Mechanic dirty (oils are tough). Welding. Tree sap from cutting down/splitting.
Front loader?
Not trying to defend stupid internet connectivity but my washing machine is in the basement in a shared laundry room while I live on the second floor of the apartment building. No way I'll hear it beep so a notification would be very useful actually. This is a very common situation in Europe where a lot of people live in rental apartments.
The problem is rather that there needs to be WiFi access in the laundry room.
Is this washing machine yours? Or is it owned by the landlord? If it's the landlord's, that's a different problem entirely, since now you need multiple people to have separate configurations on the same device to get notifications, but only when their particular load is finished.
I can absolutely see a reason to have "smart" laundromats for things like error codes, abandoned loads, usage statistics, maintenance history, full coin reservoir, etc. That's the type of problem a shared laundry room would have as well, and it would be fairly easy to add a "tap to notify" feature where you scan a QR code or tap with NFC to get remote access to it.
But for a typical home situation where the laundry machine is the apartment or house, I really don't see a point, and it's just a liability.
It is mine. There is a room with each tenant' washing machine in the basement and that is a typical situation in Germany.
Huh, I've never heard of that before. Interesting.
i have an old one without any of it and i dont even care, ill be there eventually and see its done.
im okay with my clothes waiting for a bit
Its enough for me too. But not everyone has the same use case and environment. I definitely see why someone would want this.
What I disagree with is that it needs to communicate to the internet to do this. It adds delay and potential for outage if your internet is out. But they do this so they can force you to get their app and milk you for extra data to sell. Internet capable smart devices are to harvest data not grant features. Features could be done better by ZigBee and a hub, but that doesnt grant the device a way to phone home
Mine is in my garage, and I can't hear the jingle from inside the house.
But two power monitoring smart plugs+ home assistant fixed that issue
But two power monitoring smart plugs+ home assistant fixed that issue
A timer on your phone would have done the same with less hassle.
Most washing machines have sensors and do not dry based on a timer. The program time is just a rough estimate, if clothes are still wet or soap bubbles are still present it will do extra rinses or spins.
Correct. I often find myself going downstairs to the washing machine after 2 hours because it said 1:30h, and then it still needs another 12 minutes.
You could then just set the timer to 2:15h. Still much easier than setting up "smart" tech. It's like when a buddy of mine spent much money and put quite a bit of work into achieving that his smart light bulb lights up when he's nearing the apartment door whereas I just screw in a bulb with an integrated movement sensor that achieves exactly the same thing without pairing, sending out gigabytes of data from spying on me, and costing loads of money.
Still much easier than setting up "smart" tech.
That's really on a person by person basis. I'm a software engineer, and have already automated a lot of aspects of my life, so adding another device and a new automation took me like 10 minutes to setup.
Setting a timer is more of a hassle than having my washing machine notify me when it's done - however is most convenient for me. Due to the layout of my home, I am unable to hear the washing machine directly. And setting a timer on my phone sounds like a pain in the ass. And sometimes my wife or kids started a load and I don't know when they did that, but I need to do some laundry myself, so I need to know if the washer is free but I don't want to go all the way to the basement to find out.
Luckily, my washer connects to my Wi-Fi and, unfortunately, to the Internet. I very much like that it will notify me on my smart devices around the house and on my phone. It's actually a great feature. Similarly, I can see my next oven notifying me when it's preheated. Similar reasons - might be doing laundry or out of earshot when it's ready to cook.
The problem here isn't the feature itself. It's undeniably useful. The issue is that LG's programmers somehow wrote code that resulted in a tremendous amount of web traffic considering the extremely limited data that could possibly be collected by a washing machine. Think about every tiny thing you did today and write it all down in great detail. You could probably write a short novel if you really tried. And all that can be written to a file less than 1MB in size. The washing machine did not, could not collect that amount of private information about you without also sending audio and/or video. And I'm going to go ahead and assume it has neither microphones or cameras.
So, in the end, this is pretty clearly a programming error. My guess: The washing machine sent a json file containing:
And, due to a programming error, it sent this exact same data every second, uncompressed, all day, every day, until the stupid thing gets updated with a firmware patch.
My point is, that's simply not useful data to collect at that sort of frequency. It's true - LG wants that data , but it absolutely does not want that data sent to their servers every millisecond of every day. They want it probably once per hour. Maybe even once every 5 minutes. LG doesn't want 4GB(!) of the exact same data. Collecting and storing data costs real money and infrastructure.
TLDRB I'm going to guess that someone screwed up on the coding side and that's how you get such egregious amounts of network traffic from a washing machine.
But the one I own does a great job of notifying me and doesn't show the same traffic patterns. So I still think those and features are useful. Eventually you'll probably be glad to have them in your appliances too. There's a ton of use cases for it and it's quickly becoming standard since the technology is incredibly cheap to produce.
Source: a programmer
You underestimate the strength of my ADHD. Automation keeps me from having to rely on ol' unreliable
Then again, a simple timer on your phone could do the same thing.
Wait: Do the times listed on the screen of your washer/dryer actually reflect reality‽
My dryer will say it's got 20 minutes remaining for like an hour and a half. And yes, I clean the lint screen and vent regularly (all the way up to the roof!).
Washers usually give better estimates than dryers. How long something takes to dry depends on the material used. The washer doesn't care about anything but weight.
You don't really need an accurate timer. If it says 2:30, just set an alarm to 3h and you'll be fine most of the time.
My 30 year old, no electronics dryer takes consitent time.
Modern machines don’t display accurate cycle times at all. They use sensors to detect when to finish.
Exactly, it's just an estimate.
Or even just knowing approximately how long the cycle goes for.
I know so many people that will tell me that that is important to them. Those same people will hear the little jingle on their washing machine know that it's done, and then not go move the laundry around for 3 hours
Couldn't you just program it to start (and stop) at a given time, or make a note of how long it says on the display that it'll take?
It seems (to me) like a very, very minor improvement for a huge cost, namely that your washing machine is on your network and is internet connected.
And I bet you it reduces reliability, because all those fancy electronics are absolutely crucial for it to work at all and brittle as a sand castle. So you'll end up with a white brick if the wifi module craps out or a capacitor gets too warm.
An 1830's egg timer already resolved this problem, Future Boy...
It would be neat if it would then hang it to dry and when dry fold it and put it in the closet. It doesn't so it isn't. Its is just an old school jingle alert with extra (datatracking, most likely) steps.
Yeah.
Growing up, the washer and dryer were in the basement and you could really only hear that if you were in the living room with the TV off (so... never). But as an adult (who is finally living somewhere with its own washer/dryer...), I can hear that jingle throughout the entire house if I am not watching a loud movie at the time.
Growing up, we would more or less time it. Start a load and set the alarm on your watch for when it is done. But basically any modern washer/dryer is going to use fuzzy logic based on load weight and water levels and humidity and so forth. You can approximate how long it takes, but you don't really have a proper timer. Which was annoying when my friends' washer broke and they had to do loads at my place and it was always "Can you text us when it actually finishes?" or "So... I see you play Warframe. A lot... Uhm... It says there is five more minutes left"
So yeah. I can definitely see value in a networked washer or dryer depending on your living situation. And, while it would break IMMEDIATELY, I would love a washer and dryer with SMS push notifications for apartment complexes.
Also, while it is immensely wasteful (or a great way to get mildewy clothes), there is something to being able to start a dryer load when I pass the gas station about 20 minutes from home on a snowboard day. Because that would mean that I would have time to get home, take a really quick shower, and put on toasty warm clothes to compensate for having spent a few hours bouncing in the snow. And I would allow SO much spyware to enable that...
I’m all for smart appliances
I'm personally not. I'm for appliances with a standard interface, maybe, through which it can be connected to some smart home system.
I do not mean internet access or anything else "smart" in the appliance itself. I mean being able to use the same functions as buttons and indicators offer, remotely. I2C will do.
What you have just described could be ZigBee and/or MQTT.
And Z-wave
No need for radio even. MQTT - yes.
I2C is very short range, it's meant for connecting parts on the same board. You want something like RS-485. The Modbus protocol, which runs over RS-485 would be perfect for this.
Yes, from quick googling seems exactly what I want.
For the love of God, I just can't understand how "needs Internet" became synonymous with "smart" in the appliances market slang. I know it's what advertisers do, but this one is abysmal.
Well, calling a machine "smart" doesn't seem smart to me in general
Forgotten laundry leads to mildew. Plenty of home assistance scripts out there to remind users to empty washer/dryer.
Makes sense for manufacturers to want to build this feature into the appliance itself.
Mildew doesn't grow in 15min, it takes hours to even smell weird and days to grow fungi. It's literally been cleaned with soap and hot water, there's not much to grow left.
And the less "smart" function off just automatically popping open the door when done prevents it too...
I just start a timer on my phone?
I have one for both my dryer and my washer.
I load the washer then start the timer, when it goes off I just load it in the dryer then start the other timer.
It's super easy and it's no effort at all.
I had an old wind up kitchen timer with writing on it for a while but I missed it a few too many times so I switched to the phone timers.
You don’t need it to be on the appliance itself. Hook a power metering smart outlet and you can tell. Or a shake sensor. Or an open door sensor. Combine them all for a reliable effective way to tell if it’s done and the door has been opened, all for a much lower price than what those “smart” appliances charge the premium for. This way you can also choose vendors that work on local wifi/zigbee/z wave and don’t own a paper weight or part functional item the moment the vendor decides to shutdown the servers.
Agreed, and this is what I have set up for mine... But this is also technologically so far out of reach for >95% of people...
I love mine. It reminds me when to clean it, when the drain is acting up, and when it’s done. It can even order supplies on its own. Sure all those things can be handled with a calendar but I’m lazy.
The drain issue might be hard to figure out on your own. Mine has a little notification light that comes on to run a self-clean cycle every x number of washes, but I’m pretty sure I’m the only one in my house who actually runs it.
I love my brain chip. It reminds me when to clean myself, when my bowels are acting up, and when I'm dead. It can even order products I don't need on its own. Sure all those things can be handled with my own brain but I'm lazy.
your grandkids in 2074
You use a calendar for reminders right?
So it has a mechanism to let you know when the drain is clogged?
Seems like it would be better to spend that engineering on making the drain work better.
Weird.
I'm all for smart appliances, but a smart washing machine is a solution in search of a problem.
I personally love smart washers, they are a solution to the problem that we used to have at home.
We have 5 adults at home. The app lets us know if it's being used or not, and lets us know how much longer left.
Also let's us remind the other person to move their stuff in the washer to the dryer.
I personally do not want to walk over to our laundry room in the garage not connected to our house to check each time to see if it's available, then walk back to my room to grab my laundry, then bring it to the laundry room
I would prefer if everything was able to be used on a local network instead though. Like a Samsung machine that hosts a local server where data never leaves the home and still works.
You can also use it to start a load while you’re at work when you didn’t want your clothes sitting after washing all day. True, there’s old school delay functions but this gives a little more control.
Not saying it’s worth it, but a feature I haven’t seen anyone else mention.
If you add white vinegar to load, you won’t get the ick from clothes sitting in washer for hours.
I can imagine that irritates some people's skin though
For me it isn't about knowing when it's done, it's about it continuously annoying me if I still haven't flipped it an hour later
While I don’t have a smart washing machine, I use a smart power outlet to let me know when the laundry is done, remind me if the load is still sitting in the washer without moving to the drier, etc.
Definitely some legit use cases to make the process smart.
I set it up to alert my smart speakers when it's done so my family doesn't leave their laundry in the washer to mold and rot all day. That's about all I use the smart features for. And I do it through a 3rd party open source home automation solution.
Electricity is pretty expensive where I live, but solar opportunity is fairly good. Selling power back to grid is nowhere near as cost effective as using solar directly.
So, I could see a compelling use case of, "I want my laundry done by X o'clock. Start the wash when it'll be mostly on my cheap solar."
But yeah. I would never buy one unless it supports local-only/VLAN-restricts-internet-access usage.
When your current washer breaks to the point of being unrepairable, you will find the only choice is an Internet connected washer.
I bought the same model Bosch dishwasher that I bought last year ( I have 2 dishwashers). Bosch added Internet to their dishwashers this year. I was enraged but had no choice. They removed some wash features from buttons and made them selectable only from the app. I haven't turned the feature on but there's Wi-Fi in my dishwasher screaming to get out to the Internet. It could likely be hijacked with the right bot attack.
We need a law that all antennas come with a physical switch. Wifi, Cell, whatever comes next. They need a physical cut off switch just like privacy doors have become common on laptop cameras.
I simply will not buy a washing machine where some of the options for its regular use require an internet connection. I can see adding Bluetooth to it for things like remote control and phone notifications, or even WLAN support for connecting to some kind of smarthome hub that is internet-connected so you can get those notifications remotely. But the idea that smart == device-level internet connection is terrible. Appliances for basic living requirements, like laundry, should not require an internet connection of their own to function.
There are situations where you might want to monitor water use (someone mentioned delaying cycles based on water softener status), or people like me who might need a phone reminder because I’ll forget I put a load in and get busy with something else and it’s nice if I don’t have the extra step of setting a timer and trying to get it just right.
The problem isn’t the connectivity, the problem is the proprietary cloud ecosystems. HomeAssistant is already a brilliant home automation hub, just make devices repairable and with local control and I’ll be a customer.
or people like me who might need a phone reminder because I’ll forget I put a load in and get busy with something else
This. As someone with ADHD, it's very helpful to get an extra alert when my washer/dryer is done.
I used to pull this off with a Zigbee Smart Outlet + HA, which is frankly an OK fix, but did not work for my electric dryer.
When it came time to replace my old appliances, I got a smart washer & dryer, said what the hell and put it on an isolated network. It's connected to HA via the cloud (not ideal but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). It just works, and I wind up with mildewy neglected clothes less often.
It's not perfect, but I'm willing to deal with isolating 2 appliances to cover for my attention span.
I doubt it is needed. Certainly hope not.
I am completely in agreement and would be even willing to pay more for dumb appliances if it comes right down to it.
I just ordered a dryer that may have to go on top of my dishwasher which is on top of my washing machine - hard to explain why except to say there was no good place for the washing machine dishwasher in the kitchen.
If that happens, I'll be able to reach the clothes, but the control panel will be a bit of a stretch. In that case wifi control could be clutch.
Edit: my brain can never sort those two out.
Also I understand this is not the intended use case, I just think it's funny.
I’m so curious about your kitchen setup
There's no dedicated spot for a dishwasher under any of the benches, and to get a hose out from the sink would need holes drilled that I'm not prepared to do because it's a rental. Also, all the wall area is spoken for, and there are doors immediately next to the kitchen on both sides. One of those doors is the laundry, so I just stuck it in there. It's a small laundry though, so there's no space side by side for anything. If the triple stack doesn't work, the dryer can go on the opposite side of the kitchen under or over my small freezer, since it doesn't need water. That's where my dishwasher would've gone if not for the hoses that would've needed to go across the floor.
If you're putting in a dishwasher just drill the holes. Your landlord will thank you for saving them the trouble of having to do that themselves some day.
I don't think any normal landlord would give two shits about some dishwasher-hose-sized holes drilled under a sink, between internal cabinet walls, that no one will ever see. Such holes are so far back and out of the way... No one would ever notice unless they're missing.
Those aren't the holes I'm talking about, I would drill those in a second. I've done it before.
There's enough information in my post to explain why it's not as simple as you seem to think, plus the other issues with doing it this way, and I can unpack it for you, but I'd need you to tell me you were interested in the information first.
im with this guy, vandalize the apartment to a better condition than you left it.
I don't know if the stack will work, unless you have tall ceilings. Standard dishwasher is 3ft, a miniature dryer is 2ft, and a miniature washing machine is 2ft. That's 8ft without stacking hardware, and standard ceilings are 8ft 2in.
Before I spent hundreds of dollars on a dryer I did measure the space. Also, "standard" ceilings where? Given you didn't specify, I'd assume you mean in the US.
In the US, the standard size ceiling is due to the length and width of 2x4s. 8ft 2in is an 8ft 2x4 plus the top and bottom plate minus the flooring and ceiling drywall. In newer and more expensive houses, 9ft is starting to become more common as people are spending more and more on building.
Idk, in my particular situation I would like a smart washing machine. I have a smart fridge, that is essentially useless, but a smart washing machine would tell me when my laundry was done so I can switch it into the dryer. That actually seems useful in my particular situation.
I don't think any need an internet connection...
But some people connect everything they can for some reason.