Honest question: what is your ideas for a solution in Palestine/Israel
Honest question: what is your ideas for a solution in Palestine/Israel
First off, I’m truly asking this in good faith, please be nice but correct me too on anything I saw that’s stupid.
As an anarchism, my ideal solution for Palestine is a no-state solution where people are allowed to move freely, interact freely, and work being done on both sides to heal from the decades of conflict and live in one society.
Now you folks (I love you folks) aren’t all anarchists and I’d love to hear your thoughts. Sometimes I’ll see people saying that all Israelis should just move somewhere else, but I think that’s really dumb. Both sides seem to be operating on the assumption that the other group will leave, which in my opinion is just as racist thinking as saying all the Palestinians should just leave.
So what are the tankie’s (/j) thoughts.
Since Israel has spent 40 years making two states, one for each side impossible, the only solution now is a single state that guarantees equal rights for all citizens, and is dedicated to a truth and reconciliation process where the old injustices of both sides are resolved.
It would be named Palestine
Pretty close to my answer. Lacking the privileges of an ethnostate, a steady trickle of Israelis leave for other nations. The resources that had been devoted to a massive military can now be dedicated to the necessary infrastructure (sewage treatment, desalinization, etc.) for a densely populated region.
Why do they need a state to have equal rights for all and reconcile and resolve the injustices of both sides? Wouldn't it be less likely to backslide into authoritarianism if there wasn't a state at all?
Edit: This is intenionally constructed to be a baby-leftist question to help OP get up to speed.
It will be much more likely to "backslide into authoritarianism" if it's unable to defend itself from inevitable US subversion.
Wouldn't it be less likely to backslide into authoritarianism if there wasn't a state at all?
I don't think that's a reasonable assumption. In the absence of a state all that would happen is the one ethnic group with the majority of the resources and the majority of the military equipment will just form a state and go back to exterminating the other ethnic group
All living Palestinians get to return to their homes, which are rebuilt as needed. Remaining unhoused Palestinians get new homes. The state of Israel and its backers pay ongoing reparations, and their leaders (military, political, and media) are tried for war crimes. Israeli citizens are re-educated. A new government is formed which gives Palestinians equal status, vigorously enforced. Whether that new government is a two state solution, one state replacement for Israel, or no state anarchist utopia is not as important as the rest, and is much more contingent on who's enforcing the change with what power.
I fully agree. Do you think the UN would be a powerful enough enforcer in this situation or would something else need to be created?
UN isn't enforcing shit, they created the settler colonial genocider country in the first place. Hamas or another Palestinian militant group or coalition would have to enforce it with state support from Iran, Russia and China.
A single, multi-ethnic and secular state.
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I’d love to read more about Russians plan if you’ve got any links.
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I don't necessarily agree with the stance that every Israeli must leave the country, but that stance is not inherently racist.
The state of Israel is a settler colony that has stolen land from it's native inhabitants, murdered and displaced those inhabitants, and forced them into apartheid. To believe that the people that have committed these atrocities should leave is an opinion not rooted in race.
Not to sound like a chud, but isn’t this true of every setter colonial state? Should the same happen for North America, Australia, Siberia, and all the others. Again, I’m really not trying to do a “gatcha”, I’m just wanting to discuss.
I think there's a meaningful difference in that the colonization of Palestine is so recent. All the examples you give are from over a hundred to several hundred years ago, and so much time has passed that addressing the damage becomes more complex. Living Palestinians have been kicked out of their homes by colonizers and could be returned to them, whereas the brunt of land and property theft against Native Americans for example was already done by the start of the 20th century. That doesn't mean it's not worth addressing or impossible to address, just that it'd look different.
Like I said, I don't hold the stance myself, I was just pointing out that its not necessarily a race thing. I think having these stances is a lot more realistic for a smaller, more recently established nation such as Israel, in contrast to the Americas.
Personally I think, as people have said, a multi-ethnic single state with laws, regulations, and trials with real consequences in place to prevent this kind of thing from happening ever again is ideal. Call it Palestine.
Should the same happen for North America, Australia, Siberia, and all the others
Yes, unironically. As much as I recognize it's not realistic/possible, I do not recognize the settlers-- or the sons and daughters of settlers, for that matter-- to have any justifiable claim to either a state or governance over such, ESPECIALLY not with the kinds of things Amerikans did, have done, and will do to maintain said governance. Given my druthers, I'd ship 'em all back to wherever in the European Union they're most likely to claim and let them sort it all out.
There is also an active settler movement in the West Bank, in the process of commuting violence against Palestinians with the express purpose of occupying their homes and land.
I’m really not trying to do a “gatcha”
put more
moneytime in the posting machine, and it spits outtokensresponses to your posts that are sometimes repetitive and not quite the exact one you're looking for, so it reinforces a strong behavior pattern... fun game!
1 state solution with equal rights for all, but transfer of all land, wealth, industries, companies, and bureaucratic positions to the Palestinians.
Abolish the education system, abolish the apartheid military, and have mandatory re-education and reparations payments from ex-settlers.
Sometimes I’ll see people saying that all Israelis should just move somewhere else, but I think that’s really dumb. Both sides seem to be operating on the assumption that the other group will leave, which in my opinion is just as racist thinking as saying all the Palestinians should just leave.
Yeah, when they, {the settlers} lose their economic and political privileges of apartheid and settler colonialism, I'm pretty sure a lot of them would just leave (see Algeria's Pied Noir, Zimbabwe and South Africa's white elites, Angola and Mozambique's retornados), though most of them to note are probably European or 'White' American descended (East or West European).
As for the remaining Jews, which are likely Sephardic and Middle Eastern (Mizrahi means 'Oriental'), let them be... they once lived peacefully with their neighbors (as a more indigenous people there), and they should be for many decades to come...
We can benefit them as well, since they're more likely to disenfranchised, if not in the same predicament as Palestinians...
Yeah, when they, {the settlers} lose their economic and political privileges of apartheid and settler colonialism, I'm pretty sure a lot of them would just leave
You’re totally right, I didn’t even think of this despite just reading about Algeria the other day.
Careful, you’re about to whip out the calipers for Israelis.
You’ve established a separate set of rules for White/ non white Israelis, and smacks of racial determinism. This ignores the prevalence of Mizrachim among the most vocal right wing factions. (A corelary in the U.S. would be reactionary politics among 2nd generation central and South Americans.)
You’ve established a separate set of rules for White/ non white Israelis, and smacks of racial determinism.
Jaysus wept, I apologize if my statement looks like that.... I did not mean to communicate like that... I guess I confused race and class dynamics, especially in settler-capitalist setting...
This ignores the prevalence of Mizrachim among the most vocal right wing factions. (A corelary in the U.S. would be reactionary politics among 2nd generation central and South Americans.)
Likewise with Black American collaborators who want to go with their white settler-capitalist counterparts, if a few Mizrachim want to flee right back to their settler-colonial mother's skirts, fine, they do be so...
But lemme tell you this, wasn't AfD's stronghold to be annexed areas of former East Germany?
Political waves change and so do too with Mizrahim political involvement... Do you wanna know why some of them are rightists?
Mizrahim political history
It’s impossible to understand Israel’s lurch to the right and the rise of the hawkish Likud party without understanding the trajectory of the Mizrahim. So, what happened?
For starters, the experience of being kicked out of Arab countries post-1948 naturally soured many Jews’ feelings toward the Arab world. Plus, from the moment they arrived in Israel, the experience of discrimination taught Mizrahim that gaining social status was contingent on rejecting Arabness.
But there was another factor at play. For the first three decades of Israel’s existence, it was ruled by the Labor Party, which was rooted in both socialism and Ashkenazi Zionism. In practice, that meant building up leftist institutions like the kibbutz — a kind of utopian agricultural commune that stretches back to Zionism’s early days — even while pushing Palestinians off their land and discriminating against Mizrahim (who were more likely to be hired as cheap laborers on a kibbutz than to gain membership in it).
Meanwhile, the Israeli right, which favored an even more hardline approach toward the Palestinians, strategically used the left’s discrimination against Mizrahim to its own advantage. From the 1950s to the 1970s, it invested in courting Mizrahim by promising them concrete benefits and upward mobility.
tl;dr of the trajectory: When there is no other viable and living anti-imperialist, progressive, socialist alternatives to court the marginalized lumpenprole, more aptly, the Mizrahim, the cold-hearted western unequal-exchange socdems, or the more reactionary fascists instead became their main political choices, when they find their base in them...
Generally speaking, there are also right wingers in Black American voters, yet you likely won't tell me to stop finding solidarity between them and Native Americans....
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my idea is draw a random shape on the map of europe and make all the "israelis" go there
Give them Utah
Settlers can stay if they wish, they just wont be settlers anymore. Make it secular and ruthlessly remove all traces of apartheid. And just for fun make it a two-state solution. One state for Palestinians and another state also for Palestinians. Call it Palestine 2
What about this new system makes people living in stolen homes and/or on stolen land no longer “settlers”?
How safe would you feel if the army and police that used to protect you in your stolen house were suddenly not there any more? Best that armed settlers could do is flee toward each other and consolidate their firepower and then its just Palestinians building a defensive perimeter around them to wait them out.
Un
stalincouncil with un peacekeeping force rams through court reform, where all judgements about land and houses (including all refugees in all countries) go through un-appointed non-aligned judges panels, if person only wants compensation they get shuttled to the end of the court line. Then they shuffle people around the land. After living situation is resolved (after return of palestinians and rebuilding houses for israelis who want to stay), land becomes sold-able, and reparations are being paid via bond issuance. Un peacekeeping force is removed after two generations, if there are no further problems.*all passed legislation is subject to icj review if local groups think its discriminatory outside of right-of-return framework
And this would be under one unified state? Sounds like a difficult but solid plan to me.
yeah, there are people born in israel through no fault of their own and wanting to live in promised land and sharing it with neighbors just as there are palestinians who have founded new home and don't want to return.
the un peacekeeping force is the more difficult issue, considering their history of doing bad stuff (e.g. haiti), ideally it would be someone completely agnostic to three abrahamic religions, but that would be china/japan/nepal, and unlikely to fly very well
The situation in occupied and greater Palestine is complex and it's necessary to understand that there needs to be a levelling of the playing field; a vast amount of reparations from Israel is required.
The problem with a no-state solution is that in effect it amounts to kicking away the ladder. If Israel was abolished tomorrow Palestinians and former-Israelis would not be starting from the same position - Israel has built itself up while continuously knocking Palestine down. The disparities in health, education, economic participation, development, and the sheer degree of trauma that Palestinians have been subjected to and so on isn't going to be swept away with a no-state solution.
Thus I would argue that there needs to be a centralised authority which works to achieve restorative justice and to address the inequities that are now deeply embedded into the material conditions of Palestine.
It would be wonderful if we lived in immense abundance, where people would be overflowing with generosity, but people are parochial in their outlook by their very nature. It would be borderline impossible to get a hardline Zionist former-Israeli to wake up one morning and think "Yeah, I really would like to see 10% of what I produce to be diverted to the cultural enrichment of Palestinians!" For that matter, you don't take a person who gleefully slaughters Palestinian children one day and expect that they are going to be all kindness and compassion towards Palestinians the next simply because the state of Israel ceased to exist in the meantime. So there's going to be the need for a state of some description and I cannot imagine any other way of addressing the material conditions, let alone the structural and social and cultural factors that a liberated Palestine would have to grapple with.
I think that half of the population of Israel would return back to places like Europe and the US if Israel ceased to exist, especially when they are no longer provided the special privileges that the state of Israel currently affords them. I don't think that expelling former-Israelis is an ideal solution imo, although when Palestine is liberated I'm not going to condescend to dictate how they ought to go about their own liberation and decolonisation; if you sow the seed of colonialism but you don't like the fruit that this tree will eventually come bear, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. Skill issue.
You hand over all Israeli territory to Palestinians. You try every Israeli politician, office holder, bureaucrat, soldier, cop, janitor, ceo, cfo, banker, etc. for crimes against humanity.
You get a leniency if you cooperate. You are barred from political, financial, or decision making office for 40 years. You are executed if you refuse to cooperate and are found guilty.
You abolish the entire educational curriculum. You abolish the military. You abolish Israeli cops. You execute every Israeli Prison Guard.
You put a lien on every Israeli real state holding where any and all profit is placed in trust to the Palestinian people.
75 years of impunity created this problem. The situation calls for 75 years of whatever you call the opposite of impunity. Life sentences for asking dumb questions. A reign of terror which makes Robespierre look like a pacifist.
the idea of not having a state is a very silly one. If the palestinians win tomorrow what do you think happens, do the fascist zionists all immediately leave? No! They will stay and fight, just like how the nazis continued to terrorise civilians in east germany. Equally the United states and its lackeys will continue to try and dismantle the reunified palestine, as joe biden says "if israel did not exist, we would create one". So what is a state, a state is the machinary through which one class subordinates another. Are there multiple opposing classes in palestine? Yes, at least two, indiginous palestinians and zionists (if you object to this definition of classes please refer to losurdos "class strugle"). If the palestinians do not form a state to subordinate the zionists (in some way) then, and this is the important part, the zionists will simply reform the state of israel. A no state solution where everyone heals sounds great, if you dont remember that one side needs to heal much more than the other, and the other is actively trying to kill every palestinian and will continue to do so as long as they exist, as is inherent in the setller class position.
I recommend this edited speech excerpt by parenti also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQUEUM0t1y8
Yeah, I should have made it more clear that I don’t believe that that is at all realistic currently.
A single state solution similar to post apartheid South Africa (but with much better economic reform, affirmative action and reparations towards Palestinians, etc) would probably be the most ideal solution in my opinion, but I think it's very unrealistic. An actual independent Palestinian state within a two state solution framework is probably the most realistic best outcome, and hopefully a stepping stone to better things in the future.
A two-state solution is no longer viable outside of the entire international community (the real international community led by China, Russia, and Iran, not the US and its vassals) forcefully imposing a two-state solution on the Palestinians and Zionists. There are only two options: a state of Israel where every single Palestinian has been either exterminated or expelled from their homeland or a state of Palestine where every single Zionist with means has fled to the West with the political elites forming a provisional government in Miami. The question becomes what happens to the Zionists without means. I don't think anyone has a real answer to this question since everything is in flux.
Not every Israeli is a Zionist. There are Hasidic communities within Israel that have protested and faced reprisal from the Zionist entity. There are also conscious objectors, few as they are, who are currently stuck in prison for refusing to join the IOF. These people have a place in a Republic of Palestine. But for all the other Zionist Israelis who not only refused to stand with the Resistance but taken up arms against it, the clock is ticking when the Palestinians, as noble and magnanimous against their wretched oppressors as they are, will finally run out of patience.
The Palestinians have thus far shown far more compassion and mercy to the Zionists than the Zionists deserve, going so far as to bake a birthday cake for one of the hostages. But after so much death and destruction, the Palestinians will eventually treat the Zionists the way the Zionists have treated the Palestinians, and the Zionists will have no one to blame but themselves.
I'm a pusher-backer against the "two-state solution is suddenly bad" thing
I've believed that a single-state is the only viable solution for a while now, so I'm curious what you mean by this. Are there issues with a one-state outcome that you feel are absent from or more tractable in a two-state outcome? Or do you think that a two-state outcome is just more readily possible and that the problems inherent to it can be overcome? I guess where I come down on it is that a two-state outcome doesn't necessarily or readily address the problem of continued Israeli antipathy and colonial activity. While a one-state outcome wouldn't necessarily address this, I do think it more readily can, provided that the circumstances of its formation give power to the Palestinian population and disempower Zionists. Not to oversimplify or to say that any of this will be easy to achieve or will be particularly graceful even under ideal circumstances.
Just throwing this in here but honestly the one state solution is just folks (including myself) moving the goal posts in response to the destruction of the two state solution by decades of Israeli policy.
It's not remotely close to ideal, but it's one of the last options that are even remotely viable (lol)
Hamas, the Houthis, etc. crush the IDF, then make arrangements with the west (or possibly Russia if necessary) to eject the settler population. All of what is now Israel is returned to Palestine and Israelis live in the west or Siberian Israel or whatever. Israeli citizens who were actually native to the region (and not war criminals) can stay and must have full protection from hate crimes, etc.
I’m sorry… I just disagree on this. At this point you can’t just eject an entire group of people from there. That’s barely better than zionists who want to send all Palestinians somewhere else. They need to learn how to coexist, because you can’t just undo it now.
Sure you can eject them, just like you can import them, and there are plenty of places (see Siberia or the American Midwest) with lots of unused space to put the ones who don't have homes to go back to already (because many actually would). As the kids say, "decolonization is not a metaphor".
I get having qualms about the prospect of removing settlers, because of course. However I’m going to caution against equating (even couched in “barely better”) colonization and ethnic cleansing with the just (if violent) return of their land to the colonized. If Nazi settlers in Poland or Czechoslovakia kicked residents out of their homes and posted up until the 21st century, would it be barely better than the ethnic cleansers to push them out and take the homes back? Or does that seem a bit unreasonable, even as we understand that both presented scenarios involve violence?
Let climate change make Israel uninhabitable and watch everyone on both sides try to immigrate to other locations where they die against a border fence with people from other countries.
Not a great solution, but it is how I expect it to play out. Otherwise, the problem has proven itself intractable for centuries.
Israel has only been around since like 1948. So... not even a hundred years yet.
Disputes between the various flavors of Abrahamic religions predate Israel and will never be resolved. Even if you want to limit it to just Palestine/Israel, there were protests in the 1920s about the British preferential treatment of Jews over Arabs well before Israel became official. The wailing wall was built in 19 BCE (predating Islam), so the origins of the dispute go way, way back. Both sides have been in the area for effectively forever.