Something something avocado toast

Landlords are not greedy. They are inherently parasitic.
- Adam Smith would agree with you.

Hot take, but it's both. I make $40k in a major american city, and while it sucks I have a decent amount saved up, I live alone, and I've paid off all my debt (although I'll probably never be able to afford a home).
To be clear, I don't think anyone should have to cut the corners I do to live with financial security, and not everyone can (my partner is disabled, financial security is a pipe dream for them), but it isn't impossible for most people.
- I make $40k in a major american city
  I hope you have healthcare, because that sounds terrifying.
  
  I do, I actually have very good insurance and a pretty-alright 401k. My partner doesn't, and it's... brutal. They've got several serious health conditions that they just hope aren't going to kill them in the next decade or so.
  Nobody should be subjected to that.

My own mother has been talking about leaving town and rather then selling her house, her plan is to rent the house out survive off the rent she collects.
on its own that wouldnt be outrageous, if it werent for the fact my mother is extremely irresponsible with money and her lifestyle and bad habits are essentially going to be paid for by someone else.
its opened my eyes on landlords.. a lot of them dont work, and they dont even do the minimum for their tenants. they just expect to get paid.
- They now have services that are essentially landlord insurance where they will perform any service for you that needs to happen for a set price for low maintenance properties.

So someone is renting it out. It's all supply and demand?? I don't think landlord just leave their apartment empty unless someone comes with 1600 bucks rents.
In Denver here, it's hard to find apartment and 2 bed 2 bath close to boulder is 2500 bucks minimum. But people still want to stay close to boulder rather than living on cheaper town.

There's a famous Agatha Christie quote where she mentions that when she was young, she never imagined she'd be rich enough to own an automobile or poor enough to not have servants in her house. At some point, the affordability of one shot way past the other.
In my lifetime, I've seen huge cost increases in housing, and huge cost decreases in most technological products. When I was a kid, the normal TV size was something like 20 inches, and cost more than a month's rent for a typical apartment. In 1990, the average rent was $447, according to this. I found a Sears catalog from 1989 with a 25 inch TV selling for $549, and a 20 inch TV for $318. It would be hard to convince someone from 1990 that one day the cheapest, shittiest apartments in the poorest neighborhoods would rent for more than a 60-inch TV per month. Or that the typical ambulance ride costs something like a month's salary of a factory worker.
That's the real problem with old people's sense of money. The human tendency is to assume that all products cost the same multiple of those products prices in their early adulthood, so the luxury products of their youth remain the luxury products of today. These old people are stuck in some kind of Agatha Christie style of cost comparison, without the self awareness, and thinking that someone who owns a cell phone should be able to afford to buy a single family detached house, or couldn't possibly be bankrupted by a single Emergency Room visit.
- Please stop blaming “old people”. It’s a divide and conquer tactic. I have grown children that are struggling with housing costs, and I absolutely understand why. Because greedy wealthy people/corporations are buying up all the property. If “old people” are pulling the avocado toast argument—they’re probably wealthy. Young wealthy people use the same argument. Something to think about regarding TVs. They were expensive back in the day, but they lasted 30+ years. ✌️ ☮️
  
  Please stop blaming “old people”.
  I'm not "blaming" anyone. I'm pointing out the mechanism that causes a portion of old people to be out of touch on these things. They rely on their own experiences to draw inferences that don't actually apply to others.
  
  It is absolutely OK to assign accurate blame and this basic misunderstanding absolutely afflicts people who aren't rich. The kind of person who bought their house when it's cheap and thinks the $2000 they pay in property taxes per year are murderous whilst ignoring the fact that folks around them are paying $2000 a month in rent.
- I totally agree with you that this is true, but I think it’s more a problem with reactionary thinking than anything else. The way I see it, the type of thinking that leads to reactionary comments is individualistic solutions to social and economic problems because you’re not allowed to question affordability.
  People of all ages pull this shit. I can’t count how many times some millennial on reddit made unwanted suggestions for a poor person’s budgeting or grocery purchases. It is obviously difficult for older folks to understand things they’re not experiencing, but I don’t think that’s the primary issue.
  Ask any traitor lunatic under 40 what to do about high prices, they’ll tell you exactly.
  
  I definitely see this a lot. Any time someone complains about the unaffordability of life you get a swarm of people prying into their personal details desperately trying to figure out how that person's situation is their own fault.

I used to pay $1100 for a 3 bedroom apartment 10 years ago, now a 2 bedroom is $2600+

Having taken the point of this post as it was intended, we can also recognize that learning how to manage your money is in fact always a good thing. Will basic hygiene undo generations of economics? No, but we certainly shouldn’t NOT teach young people to manage their money.
- Nobody on earth has suggested we stop teaching economic literacy. We should however stop pretending it is sufficient. We require systemic change.
  
  I wish I felt confident in that. But you can almost hear it right in this tweet. The mere suggestion of financial literacy is borderline offensive.
  It’s similar to how the notion of reducing your personal environmental impact is actively shit upon these days. Say anything about it and someone will shout you down about how corporations pollute more.
  It’s very similar: there are larger forces polluting the environment that make your personal behaviors insufficient to solve the problem.
  All true.
  But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do what you can personally.
  
  I think there's a suggestion we start teaching it. I'm 37, but there were idiots who didn't understand credit cards when I was 18, and there's just as many now, and there were just as many in 1995. I think this response thread here was meant to say yes, understanding the system is fucked, even if we come out on the other side with a functional economy, people still need to learn some personal responsibility when it comes to spending.

We had to give up entirely on affording a house. There are ROOMS for rent at $1200 here. This used to be a low COL area until COVID. We had low infection rates so a ton of people moved here and we don't have the infrastructure to support them. We've been priced out of what living space we did have and since there's still the illusion it's cheap to live here, it's almost impossible to get a living wage.

I paid $750 for a 2br 30 years ago. I pay $850 for a 3br now. I used to live outside San Francisco, now I'm in Ohio.
- Not living in Ohio is worth at least $1k a month, so that tracks.
  
  Yeah places with really low rents, there's always a reason. But sometimes it's still an option.

I bought my house in 2014, $224k at 4% APR, my monthly payment including taxes is $1400/mo.
It's only been 11 years, inflation is up ~35% in that time, so buying the same house now should be ~$1900/mo. Actual price if I were to buy it now? ~$3500/mo. And wages have barely budged. No wonder young people entering the workforce can't buy houses anymore.
- Interestingly, though, that huge run-up in price is also half the reason why people think they need to own homes. We need to stop looking to homes to be the “engine of wealth creation” or we’re only asking for more of this.
  The other half of the equation, of course, is wanting to have a stable home that you can control. And that’s still as valid as ever.
  But homeownership isn’t necessarily the best choice for everyone. It reduces your mobility and optionality and it carries some risks and hidden costs.
  But as long as everyone looks at it as the gateway to wealth, and feels like everyone is getting a piece of that action except them, it will contribute to the continuation of hyperinflation.
  
  This is exactly right. I don’t believe in property ownership anyway, but even if you do, it is still irrational to chase this from a social and economic planning model. Life should be affordable for everyone. Period.
- We bought a house in Tampa Florida area in 2018, our monthly cost was $1400/month. Moved to Washington in 2022 and bought a house and the house is smaller and our monthly payment is $3k. Area matters of course, but comparably I'd imagine we're in similar situations.

"Have you tried simply having more money?"
- Life's really easy when you're born rich and white.
  
  If you're born rich it doesn't matter what color you are. The difference is probably being born middle class and white, that's probably where you reap the most benefit from systemic racism. Being born poor, doesn't matter, the cards are forever stacked against you.

Exactly. $400 for mine. $100 would fill a shopping cart with groceries back then. Health insurance: $80-125/mo. Internet: $15/mo. Garage sales almost everything was less than $10, most of it was less than $5. Goodwill was a deal. DIY/homemade was a deal, a way to save money.
It was a different time. There’s no equivalent to that time today, today is pretty awful.
And now it’s all going to be so much worse thanks to MAGA, oligarchs, and Heritage.
- Yes, what is up with thrift stores charging almost the same as “first-hand” stores? Yet another example of how this generation is screwed (along with all of us old people).
  
  Ive noticed this at chains, but not at my local stores. Goodwill for example, I always see dollar tree items marked as $2+. I know Theyre from dollar tree because theyre still in the damn package.
  
  Or they somehow want to price things off eBay prices. Bro, you are a thrift store. You aren't some place that should be trying to get the absolute most out of an item.
  Price it vaguely on what people might pay for some used, unwashed, beat to hell thing. If someone thinks they can get more by selling it online, that's fine. That's on them. You don't have to compete with them. Turnover of items is more important than the most money on that old glass cup.
  
  Boutique thrift shops all try to act like they’re some amazing place to find funky retro fashion just waiting to be discovered on a Tiktok. It’s all overpriced. We’ve been to Goodwill and Habitat locally for stuff. Prices go from great to dirt cheap. They just want to move stuff, not hold on to someone’s idea of vintage cool.
  
  Walmart cut costs to the bone and squeezed down on what thrift stores used to charge.
  Thrift stores are a deal compared to Macy's, JC Penny, and such.
  
  I blame macklemore.
  Now playing MACKLEMORE & RYAN LEWIS - Thrift Shop
- Pooooor Heritage Foo dation
  Actually think their kids will be down to be obscenely rich in the future world where coral reef diving and backcountry skiing are only possible in VR
  (I have to assume wealth and intelligence have a decent correlation sometimes, but Heritage proves the relationship is certainly not 1:1)
  
  (I have to assume wealth and intelligence have a decent correlation sometimes, but Heritage proves the relationship is certainly not 1:1)
  They decidedly do not have a correlation. The majority of wealthy people inherited their wealth. Inheriting enough wealth to pay a competent finance professional has been the primary means of accruing wealth since at least the 80s. Those getting wealthy from startups and the like are outliers.
- Agreed.
  The only way for a wage earner to bootstrap their way up is to have money when historic opportunities to invest present themselves, like March 2020 and April 2025. If you have a few thousand to invest now, chances are that will turn into a massive profit over time. And even better, hold those securities for longer than a year and you get a preferred, lower tax rate on any profits.
  But most people can't do that. They're stuck taking out an (air quotes) "interest-free" loan from Klarna to make sure they don't starve this week. Our politicians are, thankfully, focused on the most important priorities, like drag queen story time. (And that's sarcasm, btw.)
  
  I was finally in a position to buy my first home just after the 2008 recession. Just a fluke of timing, and just enough to afford a hundred year old bungalow, but that luck gave me leverage. Sold the house 5 years later when I had a kid, paid off my college debt, and moved to a lower COL area. Never could have happened if I'd bought earlier or later.
  
  Please don't invest right now. You are right that you can make a lot of money if you know what you're doing, but it's still a casino. With the people running the US right now, if they ever fully implement the tariffs, the market is going to eat shit. Then you can buy if there's some glimmer of hope like Republicans losing Congress in 2026. I'm not trying to do US defaultism here, I believe this advice holds worldwide.
  I pulled all my money out when Trump got elected, and that was a good choice. If I'd gone all in on options I'd be straight up hood rich, but I can't gamble everything we have.

All CEOs are bastards or something

- Is this the original unmodified drawing? What a dump truck on the lad.
  
  Nope!
  
  Dr. Manhatten got back.

Saving money on food to buy a guillotine is personal finance.
- Trade and barter with your fellow proletariat and create the tools.
  
  Have tools, need wood.
- Maybe there is a financing plan in installments. Klarna or something...
- We have scrapyards and bulk pickup. Reuse materials and save some dough

Please, I'm begging you, please call Habitat for Humanity. Don't make assumptions based on what you think you know about the program or have heard, just fucking call.
Worst case scenario: You spend an hour at the initial meeting and discover it won't work for you. The other scenario: You end up owning a brand new home (or one refurbished to brand new) at cost.
Because my es-wife picked up the phone, I now own my own home at $600/mo., 19-year mortgage. Took us right at a year to complete the program and have keys in hand.
Be glad to answer questions, but there are variations according to the local outfit's way of doing things.
- She correct i worked making 6 bucks an hour in early 2001 and had my own apartment. Was 300 a month. Today fucking 1,000 for the same place. Bullshit not even close to what it should be.
- I’ve thought about begging a similar outfit for that kind of help - I just got my first apartment on my own six or so months ago, and I’ve always been on the edge/dependent on others for help.
  Do they ever help single people? I’d do anything just to have my name on a place. I’ve slept in a car before and I never want to be in that position again.
  
  Perhaps you and a friend could pretend to be a couple? Doesn't matter their gender or sexuality.

My parents, 35000 dollars for a two bedroom, 1 bath house 3 acres of land in the middle of BFE back in the 80's
Today, 3 bed, 1 bath house with less than .25 acres, 200k same BFE area.
With inflation something comparable to my parents house in BFE, because it's not changed all that much, should only be 100k.
And the recent minimum wage increase to 13.75 an hour passed by the people is in process of being revoked by Republicans.
And I do get tired of visiting home and taking to people that spout off the 'back in my day' bs.
- I see a lot of folks here saying "based on inflation since X, item Y SHOULD only cost Z." I want to point out those inflation numbers the government gives out every year are complete bullshit. Inflation has been WAY more than 30% over the last decade and a half or so (not you but someone above mentioned 30% as the inflation number since the aughts)
  They change their basket of goods to artificially deflate inflation numbers, it is way way way higher than the 2% a year that they claim is the average. Add greed on top and you get the crazy insane prices we see today. For a 2% inflation to really work for everyone and not just the rich assholes then minimum wage needs to increase proportionately. Should force minimum wage up the stated inflation rate once a year. So every year min wage increases by 2% (or more depending on the actual inflation rate).
- BFE?
  
  Acronym for being in the middle of nowhere.
  “Bum Fuck Egypt” or some odd variant of that.
- the recent minimum wage increase to 13.75 an hour
  Have higher standards
  
  Seriously. I'm sick of this let's-beg-for-an-itty-bitty-change nonsense. If rent near me is $2000/month, and that's supposed to be 1/3 of my pay, then I should be making $6000 per month ($72k per year!)
  Assuming I worked a full 40 hours every week, with 4 full weeks in a month, that means I'd need to make $1,500 per week, which breaks down to $37.50 per hour (before taxes, as well as before payments for employee benefits, garnishments, etc.)
  I don't live anywhere fancy. This place is an average apartment with too little parking and too many centipedes. Thankfully, I am not paying the entire rent by myself at this time, because I don't make anywhere near $37.50/hour.
  If $13.75 was the wage of somebody who worked a full 40 hours/week, for 4 weeks, they'd only make $2,200. Total. That's it. For the entire month.
  If your fight for a new minimum wage is starting with a number less than 30, you've already lost.

"Greedy landlords" is an easy cope out. Instead we should realize the system that's built to continously inflate the economy whereas our wages stagnate at best.

No one wants to work (for nothing) anymore!

I started at $1,400 in 2011. That went up to $3,200 by 2023 for the cheapest place in a worse part of town.
I had to move to an entirely different city. Fuck San Diego. Shitty ass city.
- My last apartment was 1500 a month and I made a huge jump to buy a house with a 2500 a month mortgage. Seems crazy at first, but in 5 years that same shitty "luxury" apartment is going to cost at least 2800 a month.

My mortgage is close to 1600 a month. Plus HOA fees on top of that.
I dont think rent being at that price range is always greedy landlords.
- What's your interest rate? That plays a huge factor in what your monthly payments are.
  
  Im at 5%
- I think you're right. The problem is that salaries are not keeping up. It's been a chronic problem.
- Look at what it would cost to rent a similar house in your area in terms of sq footage and location. Note a house not an apartment I shouldn't be surprised if its closer to $3500
  
  I have the same mortgage and a property manager I talked to said my house would rent for $2300. Major American city.

My first apartment (without roommates) was $600/month I think. I just check the present day at it rents for $1400! The mortgage cost on my first house (small/low cost of living area) was only $1000/month.
I just don't know how young people are affording housing these days.
- Well, most don't. Just let them enjoy abuse at home.
- I rent my parents' other house and just pay carrying costs. It's still $2800/month because of location. Trust me, it's a much better deal than it sounds...

But this flies in the face of the great American delusion that everyone can white knuckle their way through large crises arising from systemic failures or engineered on purpose by oligarchs.
- Exactly. We need more flying in that face. Like bricks

Yep no shit

You can't get there buying cars and phones you can't afford either.
- The phone that you use every day, that is required to function in daily society, and is the NUMBER ONE priority when you're homeless, aside from maybe obtaining legal documentation?
  That cell phone?
  
  OMG, would people get off the friggin cell phone thing already. People buy all kinds of things they can't afford. Money management would help with that. That was my only point. But if we HAVE to talk cell phones then fine. High end phones are over $1k. I just bought one for $200. To a person with little money, yeah cell phones too.
- As you type this, people in poverty who had their state-sponsored cheap telephones so they could get callbacks for work and take care of their families, are getting notified that the program has been canceled and they have to now somehow pay for their own phones on top of every other fee and expense that increases when you're poor.
  It's also kind of hard to not pay for your car when you live in it. Speaking from experience.
  
  That's truly terrible but I don't know what that has to do with money management, which is the only point I'm trying to make. I agree on the rest of all of this.
- That argument is stupid, because usually people need a reason to save for. Now rent is so high that people can barely save, and houses are so expensive that even if they do and get a credit with their staggering student debt, they'll never be able to afford it.
  So what do people do? they just enjoy the small things, because they know they'll never have the big ones.
  
  It's not stupid, you've just stupidly misinterpreted it.
  I believe you've mistakenly interpreted it to mean that I disagree with the premise that people have been priced out of the things we've come to believe are the standard of living now. That's not what I was objecting to.
  My point is that money should ALWAYS be managed. If you have no money, then, well I guess it manages itself. But if you have very little money, you shouldn't be buying s $60k car you can't afford. You buy a $3k car you can. Saying, I can't afford a house so I'm going to go into massive amounts of debt to buy a car to make up for it, is the REASON you need to manage money.
- Nice strawman you got there, goes well with all the avocado toast I buy instead of using it for a mortgage payment.
  
  No you see, that serious toothache you have because you can't afford to get to a dentist because you haven't been able to afford dental insurance since 2010 is just a matter of managing your money you stupid poor. Just ignore the pain and inability to eat and manage your money!
  Honestly, if you had better money management you would have gotten that taken care of immediately and then spent the additional $4000 for implants so you have a great smile for your job interviews and not get passed up because there are also 300 younger, more attractive people willing to work for less also applying for the same position.
  MONEY MANAGEMENT!
- The highest priced iPhone, all max specs, is $1600.
  If you get a new one every year, and trade in the previous year's, you'll probably get around $600 trade in value. So we're talking $1000/year for the highest priced phone.
  On a monthly basis, we're talking $83/month. That's like a rounding error on rent, utilities, and food, much less transportation and health care.
  And, more realistically, people are buying $800 phones once every 2 years, maybe seeing something like a $600 net expense spread over 24 months, for $25/month.
  Phones are like the one thing that are cheaper in 2025 than in 1985.
  
  Hell yeah, grind away for basic necessities. Bet you're a dream to talk to at parties.

Avocado toast is a big fat waste of money and I don't take anyone seriously who buys it then complains they need more.

Is it greedy landlords? Or is there a bigger issue at play, and landlords are the scapegoat? I imagine not all landlords are greedy, but if market price is $1,600, why wouldn’t the landlord charge $1,600?
- Are you not in America? We have whole software systems illegally manipulating the rental market prices.
  
  This is a great example of one of those “bigger issues” I was talking about.
- It's definitely landlords. See: Rent seeking behavior.
  
  Ok, but it’s not just landlords. It’s an entire infrastructure built on allowing this kind of thing to happen.
- Because after construction costs have already been paid off everything that exceeds maintenance costs is pure profit for landlords.
  Wanting to increase profis beyond the inflation rate to cover their own costs of living is greed.
  
  You’re just saying “capitalism is greed”. Which is fine, and not wrong, but it Isn’t all that insightful and does nothing to solve any actual problems.
  Fact is, supply and demand is driving these costs, not greedy landlords. If somebody wasn’t paying that rent, they wouldn’t be charging that much.
  We need to prioritize building low income/affordable homes. Flood the market with supply and the price will go down.
- Why should we have a market for housing at all? Not everything needs to be a market
  
  Also add in: education, health care, and prisons.
  It's appalling the things people are able to make money off of and still sleep well at night.
- but if market price is $1,600, why wouldn’t the landlord charge $1,600?
  Because they're not greedy. Since they all do, they're all greedy. No exceptions.
  
  There’s a concept of supply and demand. There should be more supply.
- No, not all landlords are greedy but the ones who's decisions have a large impact on the housing market are. The elderly widow who is renting out her basement to a young professional isn't being greedy. The CEO who said this quarter he'll return 25 million in stock buy backs instead of the regular 15 million are the greedy motherfuckers
  
  You got 2 downvotes for saying it’s not all landlords. I think that was what I was getting at.
  It’s easy to point your finger and blame an imaginary person for your problems. But it’s often much more complicated than that.
  There’s an infrastructure built around benefiting people with wealth that, in turn, harms people without wealth.
  
  whose

Rent isn't linked to inflation, it's linked to your income. The income you are able to gain in the area goes partially to the real estate in that area.
You can't compare it to easily imported goods from china. Who don't work for an amount that you get paid.
- Ok and assuming this person was probably in the 80’s where minimum wage was about half what it is now… that means the $310 should be $620… which it isn’t.
  
  Just compare median income with median rent over the span of time in various places of the world. Make a study like that, or find one that did this. That's useful information.
  "In 2023, 1.1% of hourly paid workers in the USA earned the federal minimum wage or less."
- Well then it's good we kept the minimum wage at $7.25 which is why inflation never happened.

If I'm not mistaken Liz Ryan is a former fortune 500, has been a consultant to several multibillion dollar companies like IBM, and at one point might have been appointed by the Biden Admin to run Youth Counseling services?
IDK, but I'm not convinced she's struggling with rent or groceries and she doesn't seem to pick the correct side in US Politics.
- She doesn’t have to be struggling herself to see other people’s struggles and try to amplify their voice.
  Even when people are millionaires, it’s a reality that they likely can’t just turn over their whole fortune at once to fix things. I’d generally guess people like this donate a lot to programs trying to fix these issues.
- So because she's not personally struggling, she can't analyze the situation?
  
  Whenever you see a message promoted and shared at large scale you have to try to analyze what it is they have to gain and what steps they've taken to achieve it.
  They're not promoting the obvious solution. They make massive amounts of money just by maintaining this image as a megacorp consultant and an author. Smells like grift, that's all I'm saying.