Japanese schoolgirls training with a machinegun for the anticipated American invasion of Japan, WW2, 1945
Japanese schoolgirls training with a machinegun for the anticipated American invasion of Japan, WW2, 1945
In 9th grade US history we held a mock trial about the nuclear strikes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I was assigned the role of Harry Truman, one of the defendants. I did a ton of research about the plans for invasion of Japan on both sides, and it was terrifying. The Japanese were teaching children to fight with garden tools, and US casualty estimates were over a million soldiers.
However, in the end I came to the conclusion that the nuclear strikes weren't necessary, and I wouldn't have ordered them simply because a the war was already incredibly one-sided, and an invasion wouldn't have been necessary in the first place since Japan was already on its last legs.
The class ended up convicting me of a war crime, which was nice.
However, in the end I came to the conclusion that the nuclear strikes weren't necessary, and I wouldn't have ordered them simply because a the war was already incredibly one-sided, and an invasion wouldn't have been necessary in the first place since Japan was already on its last legs.
Then how does the war end, in your scenario?
If I'd have been president I'd continue the (not very) strategic bombing and implement a blockade. Japan has very few natural resources and relies a lot on imports, so this would have hamstrung their military effectiveness. It would have taken a bit longer but based on my half-remembered research from almost 30 years ago it would have worked without an invasion or nukes.
IMHO the nukes were signals to Stalin that he better stop at Berlin.
Then how does the war end, in your scenario?
Not comment-OP, but here's a credible scenario: https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/
Japan as another USSR satellite to be stripped for parts
Exactly how it would've ended in our world if the US wasn't a hellhole - wait a few more months and Japan surrenders by internal strife.
US casualty estimates were over a million soldiers
Those estimates have actually grown enormously as the years have passed, not surprisingly in parallel with the growth in criticism of the US for using the atomic bombs on Japanese cities. Estimates at the time were in the neighborhood of 50,000 allied casualties (where "casualties" include wounded and captured as well as killed); Truman at one point started throwing out 500,000 dead as a round number, and now in modern times we have "over a million" as a common estimate. In reality, who knows? One of the options being considered at the time as an alternative to invasion was just to continue the conventional firebombing as well as the submarine-based blockade of all of Japan's shipping, and starving Japan into eventual surrender without incurring a very high number of allied casualties in the process.
It's worth noting that a three-day firebombing campaign against Tokyo in March 1943 (using conventional ordinance) produced more Japanese casualties than did the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombings combined.
That's a pretty fair argument, I was taking the 1 Million at face value previously and if it were true then the bombs would be an obvious choice. Basically, as long as the reliable estimate stays below the 226,000 (althought we only have that upper estimate in hindsight) casualties from the bombs then the bombs should not be dropped because all lives should be considered equal.
However, there are a total of 1,326,076 killed or missing Japanese Soldiers from 1937 to 1945 not including the injured or captured, so maybe you're being a bit silly with the lowball 50,000 estimate from an Operation Downfall.
The class ended up convicting me of a war crime, which was nice.
Children are more competent than our international institutions, that's reassuring.
In 9th grade US history we held a mock trial about the nuclear strikes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Holy shit. That's a hell of an assignment for 14 year olds. Military historians and experts today debate the efficacy of the nuclear strikes and the jury is still out on if they were better than not.
I had a really great teacher. She was very much about us learning from original sources and thinking critically about the historical context of them.
My 11th grade history teacher, on the other hand, showed us Monty Python and the Holy Grail as part of our study of the medieval period.
im not too suprised, had the same topic for debate back in highschool in 11th grade. Thuradays were debate days which was always themed on what part of history the class was on. the debates werent about what what you believed in, but was used as a tool to get students to study the reasoning on both sides.
ill put a disclaimer that it was a very demanding and difficult class (id argue harder than half of my college classes), but people went into it because of two things, it prepared any student for college, and it had the highest AP passing score at the school, so it was a tried and true method.
You came to the conclusion that it was better to kill 1,000,000 people bare minimum than 226,000 people upper estimate?
I feel like when presented with those options you're directly responsible for every life you didn't save.
I don't understand why they threw two bombs. Only would have been plenty if they wanted to prove a point.
After the first bomb, there was still hesitance in Japan's high command about surrendering. After the second, a group of officers tried to coup the Japanese government to stop it from surrendering in response to the bombs.
So much emphasis is put on the fanatical atrocities of the Nazis that the fanatical atrocities of the Japanese are often overlooked in popular history. It wasn't a matter like fascist Italy, where they were ready to give up as soon as they lost.
Supernova in the East is an amazing series as part of Hardcore History and goes into detail about how one works their way up to bombing someone with nuclear weapons as a perceived act of mercy. Many voices thought the only way to make war less terrible was to make it quick.
https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-62-Supernova-in-the-East-i/
If you only detonate one they think you only have one. If you detonate two they know you can make more than one, and they don't know how many you have.
Even though I am an American, my primary school education is from a school for British expats so my WWII knowledge is mostly European focused. What was the beef between the US and Japan that led to the bombing of Pearl Harbor?
Japan's modern history is unlike any other country. 80 years before this they were an insular feudal society and 40 years after this they were the envy of the Western world technologically.
It is pretty interesting. Personally, I think a large part of it was religion (and it's encouraging fanatics), and when the original religious fanaticism couldn't be focused on the state religion, it effectively became refocused on capitalism (and a lot of cults).
People don't seem to understand how fucking hard if would have been to do a land invasion. It would have made D-Day look like a Kindergarten Macaroni project.
Probably would have resulted in nukes being used anyways, but only after millions of deaths on both sides.
Bring it CCP. We will fuck you up. - Taiwan
That's assuming a land invasion was required.
Up to that point in the war every single interaction showed that the only way to take territory from Japan was a land invasion. You couldn't bomb shell out starve them out of any of the Pacific islands, what would make anyone think you could do that too them in their homeland?
There was as far as the US was concerned no approach that ended the war without landing troops in Japan.
Japan was really desperate huh
The level they were willing to go would have made insurgencies in Iraq and Afghanistan seem tame. even the elderly in some cases were being given sharp sticks and expected to train on how to defend their given area.
I know a lot of people in the modern age abhor nuclear weapons and consider their existence crimes against humanity and their use in WW2 the greatest atrocities ever committed, but their use in 1945 factually saved the lives of hundreds of thousands on both sides, Japanese commitment to defending the home islands that intense it's entirely likely literal millions would have died in their defense, despite knowing it was inevitable a US force would eventually successfully gain control of most if not all the population centers and resources.
As a matter of fact, more people died in Tokyo from daily bombing raids in a single day than both atomic bombings.
Who isn't when faced with very real threat of invasion?
Girls UND panzer irl be like
Lucky they weren't on carpet duty....
かわいい
可愛い
Were women allowed in school in Dai Nippon Empire? They barely get accepted in Japan nowadays.
The fuck you on about
It was a jab at women being rejected from universities in Japan, ongoing cultural problem. Also a legitimate question as well, I have no idea what sort of rights were afforded to women in Japan before their occupation by the USA, but I know historically they were treated like objects and dealt with footbinding or other body modifications.
This doesn't seem real.
Dreadlocks would have been extremely abnormal for the period. Hell, it'd be extremely abnormal now.
You sure this isn't some indy photoshoot or AI or something?
Not sure if you're serious, and I don't know if the pic is authentic, but I don't see dreadlocks, just thick Asian hair.
Source: I'm Asian and had classmates with the same kind of hair.
Identifing AI humans is getting difficult. We need a gun expert
Don't think they're dreads. Look at the top of her head, it looks like it's just very thick hair that's covered in dirt/ dust.