The Boy Scouts of America is changing its name for the first time in its 114-year history. The Texas-based organization is announcing at its annual meeting in Florida on Tuesday that it will become Scouting America.
Another positive step in the right direction for an organization rife with brokenness. There's a lot I don't like about the organization, but this is something a love--a scouting organization open to young women and the lgbtq community. The next step is being inclusive of nonreligious agnostic and atheist youth and leaders. As well as ending the cultural appropriation of Native American peoples.
May this organization continue to build up youth, never allow further violence against youth, and make amends for all the wrongs. There's a lot of good that comes out of organizations like this and I won't discount it even though it's riddled with a dark history.
Please do atheism and agnostics next. I finished all the way up to doing my eagle project, all I had left was to finish some paper work and I would have gotten my eagle. I quit right about then, because what was the point? They were just going to take it away from me later for not believing in some magic book, I wouldn't be the first they did it too. Absolutely ridiculous.
Edit: Any magic book** they don't even discriminate against other religions is the part that drives me even crazier. You just NEED to believe in one.
What? As a complete outsider (I'm from Sweden, scouts isn't a thing here) what does scouting have to do with religion? Why would they discriminate against atheists?
I thought scouting was about natural sciences, and helping out in the local community? Which to me sounds pretty nice!
Edit: Scouts are a thing here in Sweden. Thank you for the corrections, I'm quite baffled I've managed to miss that.
The Boy Scouts of America is a Christian organization.
Although, as I was a scout myself that shit never came into play other than the occasional group prayer at big, national events. The individual stuff in our troop was agnostic af and my troop leader was Jewish.
I believe we have Christian led organisations here in Sweden as well, but they don't necessarily push religion as part of their operations. It really depends though. I recall an after-school thing being held at a local church when I was a kid. Other than it taking place in a church from the 1200s, there wasn't really anything religious about it.
Are the girl scouts also religious? All I've ever really heard about the girl scouts is that they sell biscuits, but I assume they engage in the same activities?
In Canada they added a second option. Old: "On my honour; I promise that I will do my best; To do my duty to God and the King;...." New: "On my honour; I promise that I will do my best; To respect my country and my beliefs;...."
For the scout law, reverant doesn't have anything to do with God necessarily. It is usually used in reference to God, but it could be reverence of nature or other things.
Ooh. I suppose this is the answer I was looking for, though it still strikes me as rather strange. Was scouts established a very long time ago and did the religious bit just kind of cling on? Is there any type of push for making it secular? Because what little I knew, learning about natural sciences, and getting hands-on experience in various situations, as well as helping out the local communtiy just strikes me as a very positive thing. Squeezing in religion among all that just feels so out of place and foreign to me. It's like one of those "find the odd one out" situations.
A lot of people have mentioned that the reverence can be loosely defined and doesn't necessarily specify a certain god, but also a lot of it depends, I'm sure, on which part of the country you are in, which organization charters for you, and the volunteers that are actually part of the organization. Many people have barely had to say what they are reverent to and move on.
In the US they never dropped the mandatory overtures to religiosity. In fact, there was a period in the 90s-early 2000s where one sizable religious group who had replaced their prior youth organization with the BSA got pretty involved at the national level to the detriment of the program as a whole. While itβs not really required in any real sense at the troop level, you do have to affirm a belief in some βhigher powerβ as an adult volunteer. (Iβm an Eagle Scout and now atheist)
In Sweden, the Svenska ScoutfΓΆrbundet was an outgrowth from the original UK scouting movement, but I donβt know how big it was/is.
Oh, the Mormons were deep into Scouting well before the 90s, they just starting throwing their weight around as it became less popular to the general public and outside social pressures (i.e. not being dickbags) starting being voiced alongside the churchy bullshit.
What I don't know is when they started directly paying a negotiated rate in dues straight to BSA. I do recall when I was a little LDS kid bringing my dollar a meeting or whatever for Cub Scouts, but by the time in was in Boy Scouts in junior High they'd stopped asking for that and someone told me the church handled it.
I know. It just seemed to me that their influence began to ramp up even more (perhaps that was just my local troop though) when the LDS Church started paying registrations and activities fees in the early 90s but it truthfully happened slowly like boiling a frog over a long time.
What? Sweden don't have scouts?
My daughter was on a scout camp there last year and I believe there were swedish scouts also.
Regardless, in Denmark we have a few scout organizations. One of them KFUM (which would translate to the same as YMCA) which is the christian boy's scouting org, that also allows girls, and the similar one for girls that don't allow boys.
Both of them has Christianity as a pretty foundational thing and most of the clubhouses are in or near churches and they have church services on camps and shit.
Then there's DDS (dark blue uniforms) and they're not connected to any faith, but are still committed to the "spiritual development" of the scout. However this can be done in other ways than inflicting religion on children. In 1973 they merged the boy and girl scouts, so it's just one thing now.
The yellow scouts branched from DDS in the 80's, with a mission to go back to more traditional scouting values. Not sure what that means, but they're a also non-religious and non-political organization.
Finally there's some Danish Baptist scouts but I don't know much about them other than they're likely a more religious variant of KFUM, attached to another christian flavor.
Actually we do! I was corrected on this by @Droechai@lemm.ee, and looking it up myself they're actually quite prolific. Going by their website they exist in 220 out of the 290 municipalities here in Sweden. Honestly I'm surprised I've never heard of them before. They even have a folk high school.
I love that they're called Speider'n over there. I can see how that can be read as scouts, but in my head, "spejarna" sounds more like some sort of spy school organisation. I'm also baffled there'd be religious parts of it even in Norway. Wonder if the Swedish organisation has it too, their website at least highlights that they really value diversity, it'd be strange if they were anal about religion.
Even then, religion seems like such a strange and unrelated thing to chuck in there.
Duty to God (adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom)
Duty to others
Duty to self
When asked where religion came into Scouting and Guiding, Baden-Powell replied "It does not come in at all. It is already there. It is a fundamental factor underlying Scouting and Guiding".
Source
So unfortunately removing religion from the scouting would remove one of the core principle of the movement, I don't think it would anytime soon.
Which is a shame because I really enjoyed my time scouting, I think it was a great balance of fun, education and learning responsibilities. But the religion aspect of it make me seriously reconsider to send my kids to do it or not.
Vi har eller har haft (jag Γ€r inte uppdaterad) PMU Scout, KFUM/KFUK-Scouter, NSF-scouter och Svenska ScoutfΓΆrbundet pΓ₯ rak arm, sΓ₯ scouterna har ganska mΓ₯nga fΓΆrbund i Sverige dock
Γr religion en stor del av vΓ₯ra scoutfΓΆrbund ocksΓ₯? MΓ₯ste medge att jag Γ€r lite paff att jag har lyckats missa att scouterna finns i sverige, sΓ₯ tack fΓΆr korrigeringen. Vi svenskar Γ€r verkligen tokiga i att grunda fΓΆrbund, fΓΆreningar, och folkrΓΆrelser sΓ₯ det kΓ€nns ju rΓ€tt rimligt att scouterna skulle finnas hΓ€r ocksΓ₯.
VΓ€ldigt mΓ₯nga har kristen grund men som sΓ₯ mΓ₯nga andra sammanhang Γ€r det vΓ€ldigt bredd pΓ₯ hur fundamentalistiska de olika patrullerna Γ€r.
Har mΓΆtt scouter som ser kristendom som centralt i scoutandet medans andra ser det som survival training fΓΆr ungar eller fΓΆrberedande infΓΆr FBU, lump eller liknande
Yeah religion is shoehorned into a lot of things here. Alcoholics anonymous is religion based which makes absolutely no sense to me. Going to AA and being force fed religious bullshit would make me want to drink more.
It was also forced into some kind of rehab my buddy had to go to (court ordered after being caught with weed years ago). He took WAY longer than he should've because he's very stubborn, and said he doesn't need god to not need vices. Β―β \β _β (β γβ )β _β /β Β―
I'm really sorry to hear this. One shouldn't have to lie about this, but should be allowed to not practice any particular faith. It's honestly one of the most frustrating elements for myself among the scouts.
This is one of the reasons why I have embraced my own magical book about my own magical being of my own making. When conversations inevitably go towards religion, I sometimes like to express my lack of faith by describing my mystical faith in the Cabra Cosmica. Yep, I've got mythos down and everything. Ironically, I really enjoy this form of make-believe faith. π
Please allow me to introduce you with a fantastic stained glass depiction:
The tenants are very much in kind with those of secular humanism. And the Cabra Cosmica is as real as I wish it to be, which is both simultaneously very real and very not.
I often give thanks for my good fortune to the Cabra Cosmica as I do the Cosmos itself. I just wish to be thankful towards a thing at times and it can help to personify it. I mean, I did it most of my life to another false deity. Why not any other.
I know the Cosmos. I exist within it. Science describes it and defines its laws. Sometimes I give it a face. And sometimes that is the Cabra Cosmica.
I just wish to be thankful towards a thing at times and it can help to personify it.
That aspect reminds me of the Shinto belief that everyday objects have little spirits in them. I don't believe in spirits, but I can see how this could be an interesting or useful mental exercise.
Best of luck with your religion. Have you fought any holy wars yet?
I just didn't mention my beliefs. I think I was asked vaguely about it and I vaguely answered, but if you're still able to I'd say to do it. Having the eagle scout behind you can open some doors. It can't hurt.
Would they have accepted The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Probably. Scouting America has been openly Deist for a long time and there is an official "Event" for Christians, Muslims, and Jews. So at least at the national level they don't seem to care what Deity you jam too as long as you have one.
I was in a Mormon troop, and went through with it, though only by the skin of my teeth and my dad's incessant badgering. 17.75 years old would have been right about the time I was muscling up the courage to go openly agnostic. They don't exactly follow up.
Glad to hear about this change. I'm now somewhat less ashamed to mention it. I did the most cliche "picnic tables for the elementary school" project ever. I really didn't give a shit about advancing, but a certain ex-marine father got a bug up his ass and decided he would be the troop leader until I finished the damn thing.
Spiritual and meditated would fall into that some kind of belief thing for me. Saying I was spiritual in any facet would still be me lying to them, and I was just as stubborn then as I am now haha
Sorry you didnβt get there, but you didnβt miss a once in a lifetime event either. Religion has no place in society or scouts. One day it will be gone and kids like you wonβt have to deal with that.
If he's going to be judging the dead when he comes back, why are Christians always talking about people currently being in heaven or hell? Shouldn't they all be chilling in purgatory until Jesus gets around to judging them?
We have some really weak records that some dude existed.
That doesn't mean anything about why your mythology is true. We also have records of lots of people who millions believed were divine.
But heres another thing: You are not a Christian because it's Truth.
You're a Christian because your parents were. That's it. That's the main reason you believe what you do and swear it is real. You happened to be born into it.
Same as how 99.9999% of Hindus are only Hindu because their parents were, or Muslims, or etc. They also believe what they do not because it's the Real Truth. But because of where they were born. Which is a really, really weak reason.
...And anyway - there's a whole lot more people alive today who believe in other religions; why should I believe yours over theirs?
They're stronger than the records we have for most other historical figures.
Also I wasn't born a Christian, lol. Weird assumption to make.
Jesus exists in basically every world religion, minus Judaism which had to make a whole entire book explaining how he apparently wasn't the messiah and mocking Him in the process. They all hold inconsistent views. Islam claims that he was a prophet (not God) and his resurrection was merely an illusion, Judaism claims he was just a sorcerer (as did most roman sources from His time, because that's the only way they could explain away the miracles) Hinduism sees him as a holy man, Buddhism sees him as a Bodhisattva. But Christianity follows His teaching directly which was simple:
I am The Way, The Truth and The Life, nobody gets to The Father except through me.
That's not true. You do not have to believe in a magic book. The BSA requires a belief in God, but does not define god. It requires religion, but does not define religion.
Why is the sky blue?
If you answer "because God wanted it to be blue", you're good.
If you mention something about physics and Rayleigh Scattering, you're good.
If you answer "I don't know. I've never really thought about it", you're good.
Even If you answer "who cares?", you're good.
The only surefire way to answer this question "wrong" is something like "it's not blue because of God, because there is no god." While that statement is true (at least for any supernatural definition of "god"), you're not being asked what you don't believe, but what you do. You're not being asked to rebut someone else's belief; you're being asked about your own.
Do you hold anything to be "true"? Are the laws of thermodynamics obeyed in your household? Maybe Descartes's First Principle is more to your philosophical liking: "I think, therefore I am". 1+1=2?
The sum of everything you hold to be true, BSA refers to as your "god".
I know people who have been kicked out for being an atheist, they didn't really care to ask any of the questions you're suggesting at the time. All they asked was if he believed in any higher powers and he said no. I wouldn't say he was wrong, I don't think science is a "higher power".
In theory, maybe. Many troops have meetings at church facilities where the local church beliefs are treated as superior to others. The second troop I was in had meetings at a Methodist church and there was bullying from two scouts working on their service projects for Eagle toward a Roman Catholic kid, for "worshipping saints." Bringing it up to the Scoutmaster, who was the father of one of them, responded with the "don't be a snitch" lecture. Eagle is supposed to be the point where you're a pillar of your community, and both of those kids became Eagle scouts. "Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind," just 1/3 of the scout laws right out the window with no repercussions.
TLDR:
Scouts are about nature AND religion. Not just nature. There are many organisations that are just about nature. Feel free to join them.
Why should they not discriminate against atheists?
For real. Just because you believe it is about nature? Scout organizations are clearly about nature AND religion.
Join an organization that is just about nature.
In my country we have two strong scout organisations. One religious and one not.
Religious one focused more on a personal growth and the other one more on nature skills.
(Well some of my friends in religious one were atheists they just had to practice the same activities)
Churches do not accept atheists.
Chess clubs discriminate against non chess players.
But if they would include non chess players, chess clubs would have no meaning.
One can see you do not hold religions in high regard, but please allow people with the same interests and believes to meet and express themselves together in a peaceful manner.
That might work in your country, but there isn't some non-religious version here that's popular. They also don't advertise as religious at all, just the nature aspects. Religion wasn't mentioned in the organization a single time until I was already in for... 6 or 7 years maybe?