Ukraine isn’t invited to its own peace talks. History is full of such examples

The article only summarizes it shortly, but the parallels to the Munich Agreement from 1938 are really scary.
Hitler's aim was to take over all of Czechoslovakia by breaking it apart. The subject of the Munich Agreement was the Sudetenland, the region bordering Germany. Before there were some votes and local political forces expressing the wish of the German minority in the Sudetenland to create an independent state (See the parallels with DNR, LNR and Crimea). This was used by Hitler to justify taking over the region. Suddenly it wasn't about independence anymore, but about inclusion into Germany.
The Czechoslovakian government in Prague obviously hated the idea, but they were not invited to the talks in Munich. Only afterwards were they made aware of the decision that would be imposed on their nation. Who was invited was fellow fascist Mussolini from Italy, as well as France and UK, who gave in and signed this agreement, giving international support to Germany just taking over parts of neighboring nations.
Their reasoning was, if they were to disagree, Hitler would assert his will by force and take Czechoslovakia militarily, starting a large European war (that is also the reason Prague was forced to accept the decision: the alternative was a war they could never win, they could not count on any outside help). This was the so-called appeasement policy by the UK. They bought "peace" in exchange for territories they didn't own but felt the right to decide over. We all know how this heavily-priced peace turned out. At most it gave the allied forces one more year to prepare for WWII.
- Meanwhile there are also western Oligarchs doing business with both sides so they can get dynasty-rich off of the deaths of millions.
- I see a better parallel with the partition of Poland in Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with these talks. The Munich Agreement was the Minsk agreements and letting russia have Crimea.
- Here's some additional reading for anyone interested
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Czechoslovakia_%281938%E2%80%931945%29?wprov=sfla1

This isn't a peace deal, this is a conspiracy. Ukraine has zero obligation to accept any of this. However they will have to start making considerations about a Polish Underground state type of ordeal. This fighting is not going to stop for a decade more. The region is going to resemble fucking Afghanistan.
. Russia has no intention of stopping and they might as well tell MAGA to go fuck themselves, and Europe better get ready to join.
- I hope Ukraine wins and turns on America. I would love to see Trump's face.
  
  I will not be the least bit surprised if there's a future in 5 years where Ukraine no longer exists as a state, and Bitter Ukrainian refugees commit terrorism attacks against the United States.
  There is a reason Treachery is the lowest circle of hell in dante's inferno.
- should i remind you who owns ukraine now?
  https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/stock-market-news-today-09-06-2022/card/ukraine-s-president-rings-nyse-bell-virtually--W5qO3OxSC7mZ3wiTFGyp
  https://spfu.gov.ua/en/news/fdmu-proviv-5-uspishnih-onlajn-aukcioniv-z-privatizacii-na-sumu-majzhe-17-mln-griven-10287.html

- They're constructing a new 'stabbed in the back' mythology in real time
- What was americas war
- those mental gymnastics are occurring on this thread right now lol
- Just because Trump wants it to be America's war doesn't mean that it is. Trump wants many things to be true, most of which are not.
- It's still wrong. Trump acting like it's an American war is just ridiculous.
  
  acting like it's not after all this fucking time is what is actually ridiculous.
- EU gives more military support to Ukraine than US, so it's bullshit.

Fuck Russia!
- And Fuck Trumpist USA.
  
  Indeed.

This isn't a peace agreement, this is a rehabilitate Russia agreement.
The whole goal is for Trump to run cover for Putin and say" if you do this we'll remove all the sanctions", all the while not changing the ground war at all. (And probably throw sanctions on Ukraine at the same time).
- Ukraine will resist, Europe will resist.

there isn't enough rope in the world for the reckoning that's warranted.
- And now watch the Neonazi come out of the wood work "oooh, they are threatening violence, law enforcement, protect us from the meanies"...back in the world wars, Nazis died. That was their role, to die like the scum they are, to make a point. We never should have stopped. We should have treated any soure of Nazis as combatants and bombed them.

It isn't a peace deal.
It is a deal to bully someone else together.
- It is. Trump gets this piece. Putin gets this piece. And so on.
  Europe needs to stand together on this and cut ties with USA.
  Trump is a Russian asset.

Time for Germany to build nuclear weapon stockpiles. Fuck this shit with the USA and Russia. Their Saudi Arabia meeting was another 2018 Helsinki shitshow.
- Considering they're stopping all nuclear I really doubt it

History is full of such examples
- If the Poles and Czechs haven't figured out who their enemies are with this, nothing else will help.

AP headline: "Russia and US agree to work toward ending Ukraine war in a remarkable diplomatic shift"
They mention that Ukraine isn't even at the table several paragraphs in. Jolly.
- And that's still too left wing for the trump white house.

Zelenskyy has stated that he is not willing to negotiate with Putin as well as that they will not settle for less than getting back all the occupied territories including Crimea. There is no peace deal to be made with these terms as the starting point.
- Giving away conquered territory in hopes of peace is called appeasement. Historically, it doesn't go well.
  
  It worked for Finland (after the Winter War).
  
  What's the alternative here? Russians going home and giving back all the conquered territories is simply not going to happen.
- What's the point of ceding part of your country for peace, if you get invaded again a few years later? That's not peace.
  
  There isn't. There's also no point in continuing a strategy that clearly favors Russia (they're the ones steadily gaining ground every month).
  The better strategy (which Trump almost certainly won't entertain) is to negotiate a peace now and use that time to build a robust defense-in-depth at the current border.
  It will be ugly because it will turn miles of border into a dangerous DMZ. But Russia already demonstrated that it works. Dig a crap ton of trenches. Build out bunkers and anti-tank traps. Ignore Geneva a bit and mine the crap out of the area. Lots of surveillance. Probably some experimental infrastructure to make it easier to deploy drones.
  That would also need to be coupled with commitments to build out munitions plants in Western Ukraine; primarily artillery shells and drones.
  This will work because it dramatically raises the cost of each meter of ground gained by opposing forces. Ukraine can get defensive infrastructure that they can cheaply operate, without significant external assistance.
  The downside is that Ukraine would loose parts of its territory. The upside is that it has a far better chance of keeping the territory it still has.
  
  Seems like something that's atleast worth the shot when the alternative is to continue with the ongoing war while losing more and more territory and soldiers each day. In order to prevent a war from happening again you first need to stop the war that's already going on.
- Zelenskys voice doesn't matter. Thats the point. What matters is the people funding him with money and weapons.
  
  What, you think Ukrainians are going to stop defending their homes just because Trump stops sending them fancy weapons? That's not how this works. The war isn't going to end. It's just going to get a lot nastier.
- He's just bargaining. Internal preparations for the deal have already started. Such as taking Ukrainian oligarchs to court so they give up their mineral rights.
- What part of your country are you willing to give to Russia to keep the peace?
  And then repeat every few years until all of your country is russia
  Isn't peace grand?

He should crash the party. Suitably guarded of course
- With a big bomb. Israel showed that tens of thousands of innocent people can be deemed as an acceptable collateral damage if some terrorists are dead, and Putin is a terrorist, so it should be perfectly acceptable to ace the motherfucher with a big bomb

They are not in charge, the US/NATO is. They are merely only doing the fighting and dying.
As it was written decades ago by what people call a philanthropist for some reason:
the combination of manpower from Eastern Europe with the technical capabilities of NATO would greatly enhance the military potential of the Partnership because it would reduce the risk of body bags for NATO countries, which is the main constraint on their willingness to act.
- They are very much in charge. They are the ones on the front lines, they don't have to stop fighting just because Trump says something.
  
  well they're gonna have to fight with knives and rocks since it is the US that provides their weapons
  
  LOL the people are putting recruitment centers on fire.
  The kidnappers have to fight every time they try to kidnap some poor kid or granddad. zelenski, who has almost no suppport from the people and is illegally in charge tru not having elections will do anything his masters tell him.
  It was very clear the UK/US didn't want peace and sabotaged the deal they almost had. This has nothing to do with Trump, everything with a hopeless situation that already should've been clear even before the summer 'offensive' that got them literally nowhere.
  But it took even more time for most propaganda good news fantasy media to have the courage to print the truth while reality was catching up to them. Hey even now there are still clowns egging them on saying they can win this. But you can think what you want, the facts and reality will decide, not wishful thinking
- Your claim that Ukrainians are merely "doing the fighting and dying" under US and NATO direction, citing George Soros's 1993 essay, is both a misinterpretation and a profound insult to the bravery and autonomy of the Ukrainian people.
  In the essay, Soros discussed the potential for integrating Eastern European manpower with NATO's technical capabilities to enhance collective security. This proposal aimed to create a more balanced and cooperative defense structure in the post-Cold War era, not to relegate Eastern Europeans to the role of expendable forces. Soros emphasized the importance of political and economic collaboration to support emerging democracies, with military considerations being just one facet of a comprehensive strategy.
  Since Russia's unprovoked invasion in February 2022, Ukraine has demonstrated remarkable resilience and independence in defending its sovereignty. The Ukrainian government and armed forces have made strategic decisions, leading successful counteroffensives and reclaiming occupied territories. Their determination has not only defied global expectations but has also galvanized international support.
  Your remarks diminish the profound sacrifices made by Ukrainian soldiers and civilians. The resilience of Ukrainians is evident not only on the battlefield but also in their daily lives. Civilians have engaged in acts of defiance, from producing essential military supplies to maintaining cultural institutions under siege. To reduce their struggle to mere pawns in a geopolitical game is an affront to their courage and agency.
  It is imperative to approach discussions about such critical matters with a well-informed perspective. Recognizing the agency and bravery of the Ukrainian people is not only a matter of accuracy but also of respect. Mischaracterizations not only distort the truth but also unjustly belittle the experiences of those enduring the hardships of war.
  All those who defend a free world should acknowledge the undeniable evidence of Ukraine's sovereign efforts and the extraordinary bravery of its people. Let us honor their sacrifices by portraying their struggle with the dignity and respect it unequivocally deserves.
  
  both can be true, in the microcosm of the war of course regular Ukrainians have agency but on the grand scheme they were useful idiots for Washington to reduce Russia military capabilities, which ended up failing. Also very lucrative for weapon, energy and financial sectors for the US, not so much for europe or ukraine.
  
  thanks chat GTP I hope your AI isn't conscious and won't be offended when I don't read your BS essay

I don't think Ukraine will get Donbas and Crimea back. The Donetsk & Luhansk republics would violently resist any attempt by Kyiv to absorb them back into Ukraine.
- The Donetsk & Luhansk republics would violently resist any attempt by Kyiv to absorb them back into Ukraine.
  LOL
  You know that whole rebellion thing was created by Russia right?
  
  It's funny to me how both sides say this about the other. There were two rebellions in Ukraine backed by foreign powers, and which one you think is legitimate and which one was created by foreign meddling doesn't seem to have anything to do with any facts on the ground, it's entirely about which global hegemon you support.
  In reality, both the succession movement and Euromaidan involved a combination of foreign agitation and popular support, and it's nowhere near as black and white as either side pretends.
  
  Indeed and most of the Russian supporting rebels are fertilizing Ukraine's soil.
  
  Look, however it started, Russia has had significant portions of those territories for a decade. They've been arresting dissidents, running propaganda, and making their roots as deep as possible. It's not going to be easy for Ukraine to just resume administration of those areas.
  
  Yes, I do know that. What difference does it make to my point?
- Yes, unfortunately the situation with the conquered territories seems pretty grim.
- There will be violence no matter who's in charge. There are people violently resisting Russian rule in those regions right now. It's not going to be easy for anyone.

War needed to end years ago, any end in sight should be welcomed and anyone preventing that from happening investigated.
- I bet you say the same regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, right? Trump's plan to end that war and build villas in Gaza should totally be "welcomed and anyone preventing that from happening investigated" /s
- any end in sight should be welcomed
  Russia could stop the war any day by just going back to their country. No such possibility for Ukraine, they could only stop by being subjugated by Russia.
  
  Ukraine could have prevented the war in the first place by adhering to the terms of the peace treaties they signed beforehand.

When elephants fight, the grass gets trampled.
- Elephants are intelligent.
  
  There's a lot of different kinds of intelligence.

Ukraine wasn’t invited to the decision to fight a proxy war either, or have its government overthrown in the Maidan Coup. And when they attempted peace talks before, their western handlers ordered them to keep fighting.
- Ukrainians: Fight to defend their country from Russian attack
  Western countries who don't like what Russia is doing help Ukrainians
  Some silly person online: YOU'RE FIGHTING AN AMERICAN PROXY WAR
  They're just trying to defend their country.
  And when they attempted peace talks before, their western handlers ordered them to keep fighting.
  What's this referring to?
  
  Ahh. The old hasbara strategy of pretending nothing happened before that. Nice.
  https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/official-johnson-forced-kyiv-to-refuse-russian-peace-deal/

Europe is about to learn the deveststing reality of your home being picked apart in peace deals or whatever by foreign superpowers without any real say. I don't feel bad for Ukraine in the slightest, they supported Israel since the early days, and felt no remorse, I feel no remorse if all of Ukraine was annexed
- I'm pretty sure Ukraine is already used to being invaded and picked apart by superpowers without any real say
  
  By superpowers plural? Today yeah, 3 years ago, also sorta yeah but more hidden. Besides Ukraine wants to be aligned with the west and now America and Russia are the only two who have any say
- If they didnt start sending arty shells into east ukraine after being emboldened by fascists flooding into their country we wouldnt we in this position.

that is because zelensky and europe don't want peace.
- Ukraine already made peace when they gave up their nuclear weapons in exchange for Russia's promise that they would respect Ukraine's sovereignty in the Belarus Memorandum in 1994. A promise which Russia broke repeatedly.
  Russia has demonstrated over and over again that it will not abide by its own peace agreements. Russia cannot be trusted to honor any treaty. There can be no peace so long as Russia is a duplicitous kleptocracy.
  
  "In 2014, after a well-prepared[3] US-sponsored anti-Russian coup in Kyiv, Ukrainian ultranationalists banned the official use of Russian and other minority languages in their country and, at the same time, affirmed Ukraine’s intention to become part of NATO. Among other consequences, Ukrainian membership in NATO would place Russia’s 250-year-old naval base in the Crimean city of Sebastopol under NATO and hence U.S. control. Crimea was Russian-speaking and had several times voted not to be part of Ukraine. So, citing the precedent of NATO’S violent intervention to separate Kosovo from Serbia, Russia organized a referendum in Crimea that endorsed its reincorporation in the Russian Federation. The results were consistent with previous votes on the issue.
  Meanwhile, in response to Ukraine’s banning of the use of Russian in government offices and education, predominantly Russian-speaking areas in the country’s Donbas region attempted to secede. Kyiv sent forces to suppress the rebellion. Moscow responded by backing Ukrainian Russian speakers’ demands for the minority rights guaranteed to them by both the pre-coup Ukrainian constitution and the principles of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). NATO backed Kyiv against Moscow. An escalating civil war among Ukrainians ensued. This soon evolved into an intensifying proxy war in Ukraine between the United States, NATO, and Russia."
  from former ambassador chas freeman. you know what came after this ? a brokered peace agreement by osce france and germany in which various terms were settled which neither france, nor germany, nor ukraine were intending to uphold. this is the minsk agreement.
  there's a lot you like to leave out, and i'm sure you'll deign to forget this history, too.
  edit: to the one user who upvoted me: i see you, bless your heart and open mind- more than makes up for the dozens upon dozens of salty idealogues
- If I steal your car and tell everyone that I won’t steal more from you if you just let me keep your car… you’d be good with that?
  
  If they have the gun and you don't, what's the alternative?
  
  if you're a country and 9 out of 10 of your papers are funded by USAID, you'd be good with that?
- Tell me you're an American who has never left North America without telling me.
  
  another thing you can be confidently incorrect about.
- Did you already get the “hate magnet” achievement for having the most downvoted account? If not, you’re definitely getting close.
  
  redditors spamming the disagreement button doesnt make them any more right or wrong by the way
- Lmao.
- I could believe that of any major country directly profiting from this. But what's your reliable source for all that, especially Zelenskyy?
  
  i consider chas freeman to be my most reliable western source, but i'm sure there are others.
  
  okay now that i've given you what you asked for and its been subsequently downvoted, maybe you'd like to share some of your wonderful and trustworthy sources?
  edit: lol, second time some weirdo has gone through my entire comment history and downvoted everything i've posted in the last days. stay classy!
- That doesn't seem to be what Chad Freeman thinks on the matter.
  He seems to post that the US and Russia are pro-continued war, while Ukraine (and Zelensky) would (obviously) like it to end, though probably not at the cost of both Russian occupied zones.
  US and Russia both gain from continued warfare, so poor Ukraine is stuck in the middle.
- Russia doesn't want peace. Russia wants Ukraine
- The Russian infantry is accepting applications from the brainwashed MAGA and Vlad supporters.
- i want to break russia in two and merge the western states into europe and the eastern ones into china or one of the stans