Don't worry, China will empower the proletariat any day now

PugJesus is low-hanging fruit. They are Ultra-coded, but wrap back around to supporting NATO and western Imperialism, and denouncing every Marxist group, even the Black Panthers directly.

They wax poetic at every failed Leftist movement, and purely side with the losing side whenever there was Leftist infighting. It wouldn't be surprising if they were a fed, seemingly nobody on the fediverse hates leftists more than them.

Edit: fuck it, finally blocked him. That asshole defended transphobia and started calling everyone else a fascist, mask-off. Can't deal with that shit.

jesus christ someone posted that excellent Losurdo article from red sails and nearly every reply to it is just raging at the idea that you need to sit down and read to understand anything. Even the people trying to put forth a counter argument clearly did not actually read it. Instead they just make wild assumptions about the contents and then argue against their own bullshit.

Yeah, that's what happens every time. They're so emotionally engaged with this shit but otherwise totally mentally checked out. They would rather just rage at people trying to help them understand the world than do any sort of careful thought and discussion.
Uh, yes, it is an argument, whether or not you want to close your eyes to reality. Billionaires do not occur without individuals using concentrations of capital or power to extract large amounts of value from laborers. The wealth inequality in China is very present, due to the fact that it is capitalism.

You would do well to join the people capable of observing objective reality instead of scouring the web for essays that cite philosophers instead of data. That would require confronting your cognitive biases, though.
Did Losurdo write it? It looks like it credits Roderic Day, or is there another article somewhere?
- Yeah you're right. I got the URLs mixed up. I was thinking of this one but the Roderic Day article is also solid, though written in a way that libs who have never read a single line of theory will struggle to understand.

Invading other countries. Like....what? What country has China invaded in the last 40 years?

None of course. The last invasion, as we all know, was Vietnam in 79 (45 years ago). Besides minor border skirmishes since then they haven't done anything. Also someone remind me which governments China has toppled?
Uhm, did you ever hear of Hong Kong sweety?
Muh Chy na are being meanies in the south chy na sea11!1!

It's just low-effort bait from idiots. Well, one persistent idiot in particular, that worthless shitlib who seems to be the loudest anticommunist on the site.

The only thing worthwhile about this is that comment the OP makes about the People's Billionaires and so on, because they're a neoliberal but are happy to coopt the perspective of a leftist for the purpose of criticizing China. It shows you that they don't really believe in neoliberalism or any kind of leftism, they believe West Good and Others Bad, but dress it up with different ideological disguises to make it more palatable.

Yep, PJ will also wax poetic at Anarchist movements and whatnot, but only the ones that lasted very briefly. They also support every color revolution.

It's like they were grown in a CIA vat.
- Liberals love failed revolutions

I made it this far and then quit:

Hell, even central planning would be more socialist

berdly-smug China should try centrally planning their economy, since they're definitely not doing it right now

There is a meaningful difference between Biden and Trump, you need to do le heckin harm reduction. There is zero difference between the country that invaded Iraq and the country that had a border skirmish with Vietnam and India 40+ years ago, you imbecile, you fucking moron.

Ultra when it comes to lefties, neoliberal when it comes to righties.

When you definitely know what imperialism is.

For once, I want to see one of these libs define imperialism. I know it's not going to be in any way coherent, but I still want to see them at least try.
- Imperialism is when countries do bad things to other countries. Depending on the lib, they will either excuse US imperialism of the global south by saying that wealth extraction is actually just free (🦅🦅🦅) trade or will acknowledge that the US is imperialist but is still better than those other imperialist countries because at least gay people have (some) rights (for now).
- This is how I engage with libs. Authoritarian, Totalitarian, Imperialism, Democracy, Dictatorship, and so many other terms should be strictly defined and by forcing them to define those terms will expose them as the shallow thinkers they are, and give you a glimpse into how disjointed their perspective is.

Why is lemmy world even a thing when reddit-logo is still around?

Too ideological to stand Reddit, no theory to leave Liberalism and stop stanning the status quo.
- I can't stand reddit on an ideological level and I refuse to think about why!
You need to consider why the reddit exodus happened: they were mortally pissed over slight inconvenience in getting their treats - so they are the most distilled privilege.

Big fan of the many people that derisively mock the idea of reading an article. "Why would I read your agitprop" yeah because I really wanna make a piecemeal serving of the same tired arguments and do the same trite debunkings that has to be done for every discussion on china with ~~people who refuse to read any literature on the subject, save for memes made by Adrian Zenz~~ well-educated American liberals, before they're capable of having anything approaching a productive discussion.

The absolute hubris of those clowns. "Hehehe haven't you heard about the concentration camps" (600 up votes) "yeah I did, because I live within the same environment of western propaganda as you. I then decided to investigate the reports and found they were all bunk made up by a man who does not speak Chinese, who has claimed he is on a mission from god to crush communism. Would you please read this short paper if we're going to continue this discussion?" (-300 points, credit score lowered, banned for ~~being a tankie~~ ~~disagreeing with me~~ being a russian bot)

"Maybe they read more and that's why they know China is bad" yeah they read a bunch of radio free Asia articles and then screech with reprehension when presented with anyone who dares to do a little source critique.

feel like my brain gets a little scrambled everytime i try to think about the logic to equivocating between the people bombing millions of people and the people not bombing anyone. i try to understand, i really do, but this shit didn't even fly when i was a liberal: China bad? sure, but where the fuck was the imperialism?

I think you're kind of caricaturing genocide and imperialism don't you think? Genocide and imperialism aren't about the mass slaughter and theft of resources or occupation, it's more a state of mind than anything else. In the grand zeitgeist of our era, China administering unilateral governance over their extraneous territories without discussing it with the international community is an imperialism of sorts; Our brief visit to Iraq and Afghanistan however was just military tourism but can be thought of as a form of imperialism as well. They're both not good but surely you can see how China's efforts are worse, no? There were certainly mistakes made in Iraq but you need to remember Africa will now forever be a province of China thanks to their debt trap policies, and please don't compare that with the IMF because we both know what kind 'ism' that is. You think Palestinians or Native Americans would ever trade what happened to them to instead be ruled over by the Chinese Empire under a forever debt? Yeah I didn't think so either.

Edit: I hate that liberal thought has gotten so unhinged my post is being taken seriously. My guys, my post is patently absurd; I'm not being serious.
- Poe's law is strong here.
- Tbh if I see something is from a poster here I loosen the screws on my bullshit detector and assume they're trying to say something in good faith. This is too much though, of course its a bit or this comment wouldn't even stand lol.
- Absurd, 0 facts, 0 citations, just vibes
  
  Should checked the profile, lol
sure, but where the fuck was the imperialism?

Muh south chyna sea, muh occupied tibet, muh occupied east turkestan, muh debt trap diplomacy!!11!

Considering China's poverty is zero (at least according to the CIAs website) I would say they are already doing a pretty good job at empowering the proletariat

"No, not like that!"

lmao. Tries to call us out but their entire is too afraid of us to even federate. Little baby liberals preemptively scared of learning something that contradicts their extensive research of Googling lines from the US State Department for 15 minutes.

Sadly in my experience libs are too scared to disagree with the state department because they hate to think our country's the bad guy, let alone the worst guy. It's not even going to be a hundred years from now that when you read about different countries and why they had horrifying events take place, the answer is 'because America'.

How did Chile lose their elected leader? because America

How did Chile get such a violent dictator, Pinochet? because America

How did North Korea lose 20% of their population in such a short amount of time and all their infrastructure was destroyed? because America

How did North Korea not recover from that destruction for so long and without so much hardship? because America

How did Libya lose their leader and get stuck in a horrific civil war? because America

etc etc.

You'll note by the way the very bizarre nature of how geographically far apart these nations are; to the sensible man it seems insane that countries so far apart can be so horrifically altered by the very same force as though you're reading about the ravaging of Middle Earth by Sauron and his orc and goblin armies.
- Their "Umm acktually, I hate America too, tankie" nonsense is interesting, they will usually say it as a "gotcha" but will exclusively target enemies of the US using info directly from the US state department. They honestly seem to think in their head that they hate China and the US "equally" when you'd never see them using Chinese government information to talk about problems in the US. They honestly think they are "unbiased" while being about as blatantly biased as you can get.

Great post: https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/

And then the Western Left bursts onto the scene with a litany of harsh recriminations, determined to build up China into a villain worthy of war: “China has billionaires.” “China still has inequality.” “China still has wage labour.” “There’s no free speech there.” “Suicide nets.” “Free Tibet.” “Xinjiang is East Turkestan.” “Liberate Hong Kong.” “Neither Washington Nor Beijing.” Their indulgence in atrocity propaganda is unparalleled, and they’ll often outdo original sources and even the most vicious reactionaries in their preening paraphrases of Chinese horror.

In their “David vs. Goliath” worldview, heroism is characterized by evanescense or futility (Rosa Luxemburg, Anarchist Catalonia, Leon Trotsky, Rojava, CHAZ in Seattle, Bernie Sanders, the Communist Party of the Philippines), whereas victory and longevity are in themselves proof that principles were betrayed and sadism is the rule (Joseph Stalin, Kim Il-sung, Deng Xiaoping, Nicolás Maduro, Xi Jinping). Though socialist groups in the West tend to be secular, Christianity remains culturally hegemonic to such a degree that figures are appreciated in proportion to how well they fit a narrative template of martyrdom.

That place looks awful holy shit. Worse than Reddit

They’re the people who left reddit when their apps for redditing more efficiently stopped working. They’re reddit fundamentalists who’ve been echoing back to each other for the past year like The Disintegration Loops

Imperialism is when trade among non-nato countries

@ssjmarx@hexbear.net I feel like you could do a much better job of arguing than you did. The simple fact of the matter is that most of the people there, PJ most of all, are not participating in good faith; they will simply reach for whatever they can in order to arrive at their desired conclusion, independent of if they believe in any of it in any substantial sense. Saying "Please read this somewhat long article and then we can talk" is questionable in most circumstances, but in that circumstance you are just inviting attacks. If you are going to talk to these miserable clowns, the thing to do is nail them down and shove their face in their duplicity, not cordially invite them to a study circle for mutual enrichment. If that doesn't sound like something you want to do, then I strongly suggest not talking to them at all in these scenarios.

Also, proactively bringing up what is arguably the most sordid part of USSR history just to say "They also did a good thing but went to far" is rhetorically suicidal. The Great Purge mainly took place over two years under the direction of Yezhov, who was then convicted of deliberately killing innocent people by the boatload in order to weaken the Union, and he was shot. There were broader initiatives to purge the Party that were actually regarded as a success, but when people talk about a "Great Purge", they mean the thing that the USSR stopped and killed the person responsible for because it regarded what happened as a crime. Also, just don't bring up complicated shit where people aren't going to listen to your explanation when people are already failing to listen to your explanations on things that they brought up. Again, it's just inviting attacks when you should be focusing on as narrow a point as possible to force them not to flit about or speak in mocking generalities.

What that other commenter did of asking PJ "What would you do to have a socialist state that survives capitalist encirclement?" and then, when they try to just be derisive about China again, repeat "I didn't ask what you wouldn't do, but what you would do" was an excellent way of exposing that PJ knew very little and believed in less. They even said "I'd do what Yugoslavia did", which is an excellent opening for "Yugoslavia did not survive", not to mention any number of left criticisms of them, but I digress.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

It does help to view online debate as pure bloodsport, none of those people are going to engage in good faith.

Posts like that one are why I'm off my .ml account. I had already blocked PugJesus a while back though. But every other post on .world is complaining about a boogeyman and repeating what others say like their unfunny pun chains on Reddit. I'd bet money 80% of then have never actually opened this instance for themselves.

Yep, I still go on .ml sometimes but it's always a mistake.

I heard that umm china is suppressing people what they call xinjiang but the martyrs call it east turkestan. So obviously america should support these freedom fighters just like ukraine and israel. 1 like = 1 share 😇

From the community the pre-emptively (as a last resort though!) de-federated from us because they didn't actually want to engage with anything we had to say. Pre-emptively ... as a last resort.

Don't worry, China will empower the proletariat any day now - Lemmy.World