Ziq from raddle rails against left unity with "red fash", instead proposing anarchists return to monke (seriously)
Ziq from raddle rails against left unity with "red fash", instead proposing anarchists return to monke (seriously)
https://raddle.me/wiki/leftunity
Some choice quotes straight from the US state department
The USSR alone was responsible for the de-Tatarization of Crimea, the genocide of the Ingrian Finns, the ethnic cleansing of Poles, the mass gulaging and pogroms of Greeks, the deportation of the Karachays, the deportation of the Kalmyks, the deportation of the Chechens and Ingush (Aardakh), the deportation of the Balkars, the deportation of Azerbaijanis from Armenia, the deportation of the Meskhetian Turks, the deportations of the Chinese and Koreans, the execution and deportation of Latvians, the expulsion of Germans from Eastern Europe and the Holodomor famine that largely happened due to the USSR's confiscation and export of all the grain stores in central and eastern Ukraine, and preventing people from acquiring more food by banning free movement. Then there's communist Czechoslovakia's Romani sterilizations, the Cambodian genocide, Bulgaria's "revival process", Vietnam's Montagnard persecution, the Isaaq genocide in Somalia, the Hmong genocide in Laos, the Gukurahundi massacres in Zimbabwe and the mass starvation of anywhere between 15 and 55 million people that happened in China during Mao's "Great Leap Forward".
LMAO
Marx really made his career shamelessly ripping off Proudhon's earlier work point by point, but piling on a thick authority sludge before serving it up to the world as if he were presenting something new and not just an authoritarian perversion of Proudhon's ideas. Once Marx found fame with his plagiarism, he then decried Proudhon as being detestable; a bad economist, a bad philosopher, whose critiques were worthless and unevolved.
MARX STOLE COMMUNISM FROM ANARCHISTS!!! LOL
identifying as a leftist is a statement to the world that you support nationalism, states, borders, a monopoly on violence, being ruled by kings or presidents or central committees. Anarchists aren't left or right wing, we're anarchists. We reject the power machinations of both wings of government. We reject all authority.
LITERALLY A LIBERTARIAN
If the concept of community is authority-based e.g. steeped in majoritarianism, then what good is it to anarchists? Since at least 99.9% of all existing self-identifying communities and even theoretical proposals for communities are beholden to states, councils, committees, voter bodies and other forms of rulership, it's safe to say the community ideal in itself is just another vessel of authority. If all organized communities on the planet can be clearly demonstrated to be authority-based, then it's a safe bet that the entire concept of community is authority-forming... By simply looking at every example in the world today, you can bet with absolute certainty that any forced grouping of people around the community ideal is going to lead everyone involved through another abusive and torturous adventure in archy.
Anti...COMMUNITY??? Can't make this shit up omg.
The few remaining free people in the world e.g. the Hadza in east Africa ("Tanzania") don't live in anything resembling what we know as a community. They're nomadic, have no leaders, no gods, no rules, no crops, no property, no marriage, no parents (Hadza children have full autonomy and essentially raise themselves), don't extract anything from the land other than foraged food and are quick to remove themselves from the presence of anyone who tries to rule them.
PLEASE LET ME GO MONKE, I HATE HUMANS SO MUCH
The original National Bolsheviks in both Russia and Germany had the same idea, believing socialism needed more blatant nationalism and racism than it already had under Lenin and Stalin. In the 1980s, the concept of third positionism was taken up by the far-right, fascist political party National Front in the United Kingdom. Today there has been a resurgence in third positionist fascism under various labels, from modern nazbols to "national anarchism" to neo-Eurasianism to (I argue) Dengism. It's completely unsurprising that an ideology founded by virulent racist and colonialist paternalists like Marx and Engels would find support with so many racist nationalists.
Fucker is trying to cancel Marx using literal nazi propaganda ROFL
What is it with liberals thinking ideas are possessions? Back in the 2016 election I was told sneeringly more than once that Sanders didn't even invent medicare for all, ackshully it was some other senator. Who cares where Marx or Sanders got their ideas? This isn't a science fair, it's not a homework assignment. Fucking liberals
Imagine being an anarchist and believing in intellectual property lmao
What no dialectics does to a mfer.
Every single idea/concept/knowledge/etc is the result of a historic process, where people build up on the work of people before them and so on.
medicare for all is also just a shitty middle ground measure
just do a national health service
Private ownership brainworms
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I think they mean one kid plagiarizing the project of another
idea theft is bad because it's property
no parents (Hadza children have full autonomy and essentially raise themselves)
It is all about bedtimes
dunno, seeing as they made so many references to libertarianism it might be something else...
The anti-community rhetoric screams that they’ve conflated actual community (which the Hadza most certainly have) with the reactionary use of “community” as a veil for insular xenophobia.
I bet this is a big hit with all his alt accounts
doesn't believe in community because the only one they're involved in is just their own sockpuppets
If the concept of community is authority-based e.g. steeped in majoritarianism, then what good is it to anarchists? Since at least 99.9% of all existing self-identifying communities and even theoretical proposals for communities are beholden to states, councils, committees, voter bodies and other forms of rulership, it's safe to say the community ideal in itself is just another vessel of authority. If all organized communities on the planet can be clearly demonstrated to be authority-based, then it's a safe bet that the entire concept of community is authority-forming... By simply looking at every example in the world today, you can bet with absolute certainty that any forced grouping of people around the community ideal is going to lead everyone involved through another abusive and torturous adventure in archy.
Idiot has failed to understand that anarchism is not anti-authority.
This is what happens when you misinterpret anarchism and turn yourself into a vulgar anti-authoritarian instead of an anarchist. They anti-anarchy in their obsession with anti-authoritarianism. They hate authority so much they want ultra hyper atomisation and ultra individualism to the extent of utter obliteration of all community, social or otherwise. Why? Because you literally can't have basic human interactions without some sort of expected etiquette, expected norms that people conform to, and expected behaviours that people tell you off for if you break them. It's how human social relations work. The only way to escape all authority is to not live in groups and the desire this person has to live like that suggests they are a deeply misanthropic person.
The few remaining free people in the world e.g. the Hadza in east Africa ("Tanzania") don't live in anything resembling what we know as a community. They're nomadic, have no leaders, no gods, no rules, no crops, no property, no marriage, no parents (Hadza children have full autonomy and essentially raise themselves), don't extract anything from the land other than foraged food and are quick to remove themselves from the presence of anyone who tries to rule them.
This is really really not accurate. The social hierarchy among the hadza is age based, like most tribal arrangements, with elders being respected as teachers.
Anyway how exactly is Ziq expecting to get to this kind of lifestyle with the population we currently have other than through mass starvation and/or murder through intentionally breaking down the structures that currently exist for the current population.
the expulsion of Germans from Eastern Europe
Oh yes. The nazis. Cool. Glad I wasted my time before rereading and catching this fascist supporting shit.
The only way to escape all authority is to not live in groups and the desire this person has to live like that suggests they are a deeply misanthropic person.
Taking a peek at the thread someone linked in another comment further supports your conclusion:
I really do feel sorry for this person. They're stuck in that edgy 14 year old "everyone hates me" mentality. Friendless, alone, pretending that they hate people because they're so lacking in social skills that they can't ever connect with anyone.
I imagine though, if I met them in real life I would be filled with less "pity" and more of the "violent rage" they describe (though I think they're just misidentifying contempt as rage there).
Purging chuds, strongly encouraging underdeveloped people to do better, and upholding the advanced as exemplary is the same thing as ritual sacrifice and keeping "the rank and file" in line.
Man, if you think that banning fuckwits amounts to the ritualistic killing of people then you need to log off. The only ritualistic killing going on in social media spaces is when ziq ritualistically "killed" their administrator privileges for gross violations of trust before promptly resuming their position as administrator on raddle.
Also note that anarchists enforce community norms in effectively the same way - if you violate anti-oppressive values then you either get "ritually sacrificed" or the community enforces accountability processes to get people to sort their shit out. This isn't evidence of the deep-seated malicious nature of tankies, this is just how communities—all communites—operate and balance the competing demands of negative and positive liberties.
In that same comment thread ziq is playing victim by heavily implying that their life is being threatened by words and inference. Grow the fuck up, please.
If you rub everyone the wrong way the problem is you Ziq. If you stubbornly refuse to grow as a person or change any behaviour in any meaningful way for the happiness of those around you then you're the problem.
He wants to build a libertarian society that lets him be an asshole that rubs everyone the wrong way and PROMOTES that behaviour because he stubbornly won't accept that maybe he should stop being a fucking asshole to everyone he meets.
These ultra-individualist types amuse me because they're more or less tacitly stating to the world that they're cowards. They exalt the individual over the collective, so the idea that anyone would care about someone or something more than themselves to the point of sacrificing their life for that someone or something is unfathomable. But someone who would never risk their life for the sake of anything other than themselves is nothing more than a self-interested coward. And self-interested cowards aren't exactly known for being mentally and emotionally resilient who won't completely cave under the slightest of pressure.
And this isn't even getting to the sock puppets, an absolutely pathetic but predictable behavior of a emotionally stunted person.
So, it's unclear what event they are actually referring to, but there were a couple of forced relocations of different German populations both before and after the second world war, and this was in relation to the Nazis but it's more difficult (or in some cases just false) to claim they were Nazis. I don't think, however much of a worthless wrecker shitstain ziq absolutely is, that he is referring to the routing of the literal Wehrmacht during the war.
I will not be charitable to someone who is not equally charitable to us. When they cut the shit out of calling us fascists I might be inclined to interpret this libertarian ultra individualist anti-community nazi defender differently. But quite frankly they don't act in good faith to us so why the fuck should anyone treat them with any?
One way or another they are very clearly on the yellow side of ""anarchist"" rather than the red.
I consider myself pretty anti-authoritarian myself, and thought that's what anarchism was as well. The whole point in my mind of anarchy is to find small communities that can typically mostly agree on issues, and they then vote democratically (either direct democracy or something like consensus democracy to help against majority rule). So there's still rules, just no power structure. Is that an accurate representation of anarchism? And how would that compare to anti-authoritarianism?
Well, now you're running headfirst into what "authority" even is. How would you enact these polices; throughway revolution? That's the most authoritarian thing there is, it's inherently a small subset of the population enforcing it's will on the rest. When you begin to unravel what the idea of "authoritarianism" even is you can see that any wielding of political power, period, can rightfully be called authoritarianism.
That can lead to greater underatsnding about how it's a term largely used by those in the imperial core to degrade those in the imperial periphery who've had the balls to wage any kind of real revolution. Authoritarianism is rarely applied to imperial core nations, no matter how brutal their policies are, and never in a way that dismisses everything about them; but the opposite is true for socialist countries.
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Because you literally can't have basic human interactions without some sort of expected etiquette, expected norms that people conform to, and expected behaviours that people tell you off for if you break them. It's how human social relations work. The only way to escape all authority is to not live in groups and the desire this person has to live like that suggests they are a deeply misanthropic person.
What you described here has nothing to do with authority at all tho.
Oh wow I didn't know this kind of hunting-and-gathering fetishist still existed outside private collections. Also, Ziq seems to be confusing a low complexity society, ie one without many fixed or formal social or political roles, with not having any rules or norms.
Ziq seems to be confusing a low complexity society, ie one without many fixed or formal social or political roles, with not having any rules or norms.
It makes me question whether there might be neurodiversity in play here and a problem with recognising or fitting into social rules and norms. I don't generally like making that assessment but in searching for a "why are they like this?" it's difficult to completely ignore it. There's a problem there though because generally speaking small communities cast out members that don't conform to them more than larger societies where we build protections into law for people that are slightly outside of the norms.
Ah, I'm very familiar with the return to monke crowd I think.
I used to listen to a pretty good podcast, Ashes Ashes (https://ashesashes.org/). Episodes would cover some aspect of modern life and, while citing quality sources, detail how that aspect of modern life is unsustainable, dependent on fragile supply chaings, and/or unable to survive climate change. It's a good pod, 107 episodes, worth listening to, but pretty fucking grim at times.
Anyway, they had a discord server and I hung out a lot there while leaving reddit & twitter but before finding chapo.chat. It was full of terminally online "anarchists" and one occaisional visitor who would always stir shit up & definitely belongs here (Enoch, where are you?).
"Return to monke" memes were really popular there.
UlyssesT actually REALLY reminds me of the most active user on that server, in style not in content. The guy was really into Max Stirner and Egoism. He was an egoist anarchist. very weird. The only reason he wasn't anprim was because he needed insulin and knew that primitivism would hurt him, personally.
Thank Marx you found hexbear before they indoctrinated you into their death cult <3
The proud libertarian who can't read, gets aggressive with mirrors, and fucks family members.
Claims to be an egoist, but functions entirely on id
ziq deserves no attention
I hate ziq with a passion.
All of his shit is a rehash of why anarchists get a bad rap for being standoffish and uncooperative.
Exactly why we need to form a tankie / ancom alliance to noplatform primmies, lifestylists and libertarians.
I am an alt-civ communalist with a heavy emphasis on degrowth, appropriate technology, and resolving alienation by keeping most energy production on a human scale. Basically as close as you can get to anprim without saying "actually put everything back at a previous level of development".
I still hate ziq. The strictest anti-revisionists are still more of my comrades than ziq is.
Ziq has a lot to say about genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Let's hear what they have to say about ethnic Germans in the Ukraine, especially Mennonites, and how they were treated by anarchists.
Let's hear what they have to say about the genocidal actions against Catholics in Catalonia.
Let's hear what they have to say about the Spanish anarchists who supported the Spanish colonial holdings in Morocco and the genocidal actions that were necessary to suppress Moroccan uprisings that threatened the colonial domination?
What's that? They're all out of breath from denouncing what the tankies did in history that they didn't manage to get around to denouncing what anarchists did in history? Goodness gracious!
There's three ways that this always proceeds, in my experience:
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Open genocide denialism
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Rules-lawyering genocide
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"Actually I denounce all of those examples of genocide carried out by anarchists (it's just that I don't ever talk about it, strangely enough) but you are making an unfair generalisation by holding me personally accountable for the actions of historical anarchism which I do not support"-style hypocritical anarchistier-than-thou nuance-cuck nonsense
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Hodza children have full autonomy
this literally all is just "Ugh, Mom!!! I don't want to go to bed at 10:30!!! YOU'RE THE WORST!!!"
It doesn't understand culture, either. Hadza kids might not have individual adults yelling at them (I have no idea how Hadza people raise kids) but those kids still live in a society where the people around them are modelling behavior, teaching skills, showing them good and bad conduct and what is and isn't approved of by society. "No one tells them to eat their vegetables" doesn't mean they're not part of a society and by necessity have to operate within the norms and rules that society establishes for itself. One of the theories for why a lot of hunting and gathering societies seem pretty easy going is that if you don't get along with your community your community will stop helping you, and then you'll die pretty quickly the next time you get sick or break a bone, or just have no one to watch for predators while you take a shit.
Vietnam's Montagnard persecution
I'm sure the person using the archaic French colonial label for them cares very much about the persecution of the đồng bào.
Don't the Hazda people that still live exclusively through foraging and hunting have a life expectancy in the mid 30s, and an infant mortality rate above 20 percent? And don't the majority of Hazda people live with some forms of modern lifestyle? Last I read, of the 1300 Hazda people in Tanzania, only 300-400 are exclusively hunter gatherers.
Of course, ecofascists want everyone to die in their 30s. They literally write fanfic where 99% of humanity dies and the survivors live in caves lol.
I don't know, but mortality rates are tricky at the best of times. High infant mortality is a given without modern vaccinations and medicines, but depending on how you count mortality then those infant deaths might be draggin the life expectancy of the overall population way down. This is what's usually going on when Medieval Europe is said to have a life expectancy of 30 years. Folks routinely lived in to their 40s, 50s, or even 70s, but the huge rate of mortality in infancy and childhood brought the overall life expectancy way down.
The other thing is; There aren't very many Hadza people, and iirc they're surrounded on all sides by agriculturalists and have been subject to violence from both expanding agriculturists and pastoralists seeking new land for crops and livestock, and from European colonialists, for as long as anyone right now can remember. The 19th and early 20th century notion that folks like the Hadza and the San are ancestral primitive cave people living the same way people did a million years ago is basically just racist claptrap at this point. All these small hunting and gathering groups have been in contact with their neighbors the whole time. Like, for all of human history. Their cultures aren't "primitive" or "ancient", these people are adapting to changing and modern circumstances just like everyone else. If they're still building tools and housing the same way people in the region were a thousand years ago that's because people think those techniques are good and are well suited to the environment and the resources and tools that are available in the region.
But they're also in contact with other people. Like Hadza people have been dealing with Bantu speaking people for a long, long time. So Hadza culture doesn't just exist in this mystical ancient vacuum, it also exists in relation to and in response to Bantu culture. There's some thought that some current hunting and gathering cultures might have been pastoralist (herders) or even agricultural cultures many centuries ago but adopted hunting and gathering as they were forced in to more and more marginal lands by the expansion of other peoples. You can kind of see this on the periphery of the expansion of empires all over the place - Eventually you hit a point where you can't grow wheat or corn, and you can't ranch goats or cattle, and much of the time the agriculturalists and pastoralists stop and given up because they cannot practice their economy further out in to the bush or the desert or whatever. But the indigenous people of the region, usually greatly reduced in numbers by violence, do often know how to live in those conditions and continue to do so. They often become mysticized and quasi-legendary to the settlers when mostly they just know where to find water and good things to eat, and how to avoid the really dangerous snakes.
The idea that if Ziq could just kill enough people then everyone would live like Hadza people is very silly. Folks adapt to their environments and the resources available to them. Hadza people live in small mobile groups, at least in part, because that structural organization is very suitable to the world they live in. Without herds and crops they don't have much need for complex government or military structures. Without any fixed resources to defend they can use what is probably the most efficient military strategy in terms of conserving resources and lives; If someone is bothering you, leave.
If the population was very suddenly reduced to 20 million we wouldn't get some utopian hunting and gathering an-prim paradise. people would set right about to re-inventing herding and agriculture and water mills and all the rest of it. It might take another 400,000 years (though even if all the institutional knowledge was lost we'd still have domesticated animals and crops and people would figure out that cultivating those is useful in, I figure, about 20 years tops) but we'd get back to building cities and shit. It's what we do. If all the people around the Hadza up and decided to move to Missouri one day the Hadza would probably expand in to the land they left behind and their economy and culture would begin adapting to the new situation, too.
I really truly believe reducing a political sect to "they just silly naive kids who believe in a utopia" is very short sighted. It's done to us communist as well literally all of the time so why would you think it's a smart idea to reduce some other sect to the same label?
It's a stretch calling primitivism a utopia. They want to kill almost everyone so they can forage for berries where our cities used to be.
The sense of utopia as "a place that does not and probably could not exist" probably applies. Their paradise is the mass grave of everyone else, something that isn't likely to happen under any circumstances at all.
There are a whole lot of people who claim the title "anarchist" and have nothing meaningfully in common. The "We're going to build parallel power in order to devour the state from within until the withered husk collapses" people aren't really the same kind of animal as the "I want to live in a cave and eat bugs and sticks and I am very mad that other people think this is weird" people or the "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD LET THE UNIVERSE BURN DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR "anarcho-nihilists".
At this point I think the term obscures far, far more than it enlightens. Someone saying "I'm an anarchist" tells you nothing meaningful about their beliefs, their goals, or their theory.
Archetypical anarkiddie discovering that all communities and societies are based on authority is a pretty rare thing, but of course his conclusion is going all the way to refuse even the most basic forms and go back to monke.
The few remaining free people in the world e.g. the Hadza in east Africa (“Tanzania”) don’t live in anything resembling what we know as a community. They’re nomadic, have no leaders, no gods, no rules, no crops, no property, no marriage, no parents (Hadza children have full autonomy and essentially raise themselves), don’t extract anything from the land other than foraged food and are quick to remove themselves from the presence of anyone who tries to rule them.
That's racist and disgusting descrpition. Part of Hadza undoubtely live on very low level of development and don't form class society, but they do live in community, have leaders, gods, rules, parents (not sure about marriage and property but i assume they do have personal property). And this guy describes them as not even noble savages but literal animals.
are quick to remove themselves from the presence of anyone who tries to rule them.
And when all of the lands is taken what then? Hadza can only live like that because Tanzania was historically very sparsely inhabited, but now they are being encroached steadily too.
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monkeys aren't sinophobic
Why do NATO leftists have such a strong need to be labelled as leftists while being anything but? It's always them doing this shit and calling themselves Trotskyists or Anarchists while doing so. They aren't happy just being liberals. They have to be some kind of radical when the only thing radical they have going are some social justice issues that only put them to the left of mouth-breathing conservatives.
We have Chomsky at home.
Sinophobe
God dammit I knew we shouldn't have sent him to the West to get sutras.
You can't put all this on Monkey. Monk Sanzang was supposed to keep him under control and teach him to be less of a jerk.
Other than my first knee-jerk instinct to say "who" and "cringe" my barest surface reading of this fella is that of a post-left primitivist, which is simply word salad for being a bandit, robber and criminal. I have yet to come across one of these people not bragging about stealing or destroying the personal property of their fellow man or outright attacking and robbing people they think deserve it ( surprise, they usually don't. But its kinda funny the very rare times they jump a neo-Nazi)
I have zero hesitation to take these people out into the woods, far from civilization, and show them Alaskan native style hunting.
Thankfully, primitivists don't want to live somewhere they'd die from exposure or die from getting stomped on by the wildlife, or die from eating poisonous berries a la the Christopher McCandless technique.
You must be clairvoyant...
https://raddle.me/f/Anarchism/137809/against-the-will-of-the-people-repost
Figures that libertarian misanthropes would hate dialectics rofl https://raddle.me/f/TankiesGonnaTank/178933/if-it-s-so-offensive-that-i-call-you-red-fash-maybe-don-t
I have stolen their meme.
Anti-social freak with a straight up fascist conception of history who spouts a basterdized version of an ideology he doesn't understand
Western lifestylist garbage
they fucking mad lmao
The Sandy Hook killer, Adam Lanza, actually phoned into Primmy Zerzan's radio show to talk about a monkey. Primmies are just so fringe, they aren't worth paying attention to, cept for some laughs.
MARX STOLE COMMUNISM FROM ANARCHISTS!
anarchism was a natural response to illiterate serfs roaming the country side trying to brute force a new vision for society. We have better organization praxis since we have been transformed into modern proletarians...and now we can write our own books instead of that biblical utopian/idealist socialist dogshit!
99.9% of all existing self-identifying communities
???
no parents (Hadza children have full autonomy and essentially raise themselves)
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