International Chess Federation (FIDE) to ban and punish transgender players

So the argument about physical capabilities used to ban trans women from sports was bullshit and it was all actually transphobia?! Color me shocked
- Well... no. There are maybe 50 women total who could play in the NFL, mostly as kickers. In basketball, women use a smaller ball because their hands are just smaller. Someone who's FTM is probably not going to be able to compete.
  There are enduring advantages from living most of your life pumped with testosterone. But there's so few top athletes who transition MTF in their prime, it's not a big problem. Just look at Caitlyn Jenner. She could still beat most women (and men) at a track meet.
  
  Just gonna paste an old comment I made about trans athletes. TL;DR: athletic advantages/disadvantages diminish after ~2 years of HRT. There's no good reason to exclude trans people from elite sports. Athletes already undergo testing to make sure their hormones levels are within pre-determined limits.
  British Journal of Sports Medicine states 2 years after receiving gender affirming hormones, athletic advantages disappeared with an exception to running, in which trans- women had 9% faster lap times. Trans-men were on par with their biological male counterparts after just 1 year of hormone therapy.
  Medscape has an interview with Joanna Harper, and advisor to the I0C on gender and sports about this very topic. In the interview she mentions a study out of Brazil that indicates a further decrease in strength in trans-women (MtF) athletes after 36 months, further diminishing any potential physiological advantage in these athletes.
  There's also something to be said about who these arguments are targeting. There are very few elite trans athletes and they already have to conform to strict guidelines on blood hormone levels and other doping tactics, just like everyone else at that level. The arguments are largely against high schoolers (children) who just want to participate in something. No one is taking puberty blockers and gender affirming hormones just to take a trophy home in high school. It's a ridiculous argument through and through. A thinly veiled attempt to further marginalize and discriminate against a vulnerable population
- Yeah, non-trans women don't enjoy being forever 2nd because they weren't born men in physically competitive sport lol.
  It doesn't take years long studies to understand a woman who transitioned well into or after puberty is still built more physiologically man than women. We will still need data about those who transitioned early and before onset. When a man transitions into being a woman then wipes the floor with every one of her peers, there's something wrong.
  You either need mixed gender sport. Male only, and female only. The regulations regarding each will have to be arbitrarily chosen until a good spot is found.
  Mental sports that take near zero physical strength should have zero separations between the genders though.
  It was great when women started wiping the floor with men at Shooting lol.
  It's not so great when, well, Bill Burr says it funnier lol: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2ESahoCdQ28
  Edit: Since people want sauce wars...
  Trans athletes retaining advantages even after a year or HRT.
  https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764 - Jan. 5, 2021
  Given that the percentage difference between medal placings at the elite level is normally less than 1%, there must be confidence that an elite transwoman athlete retains no residual advantage from former testosterone exposure, where the inherent advantage depending on sport could be 10–30%. Current scientific evidence can not provide such assurances and thus, under abiding rulings, the inclusion of transwomen in the elite female division needs to be reconsidered for fairness to female-born athletes.
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/ - 2022 Aug; 19
  When a male athlete transitions to female, the National Collegiate Athletic Association, which governs college sports, requires a year of hormone-suppressing therapy to bring down testosterone levels. The N.C.A.A. put this in place to diminish the inherent biological advantage held by those born male.
  Ms. Thomas followed this regimen.
  But peer reviewed studies show that even after testosterone suppression, top trans women retain a substantial edge when racing against top biological women...
  Testosterone levels are crucial but do not invariably predict performance in every sport.
  https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/29/us/lia-thomas-women-sports.html
  Renee Richards interview...
  “I know if I’d had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me,” she said in an interview. “I’ve reconsidered my opinion.”
  https://slate.com/culture/2012/10/jewish-jocks-and-renee-richards-the-life-of-the-transsexual-tennis-legend.html
  The council said they ultimately decided to prioritize "fairness and the integrity" of the female competition over inclusion.
  The World Athletics Council plans to form a working group to consider the issue of transgender inclusion over the next year. The committee will speak with transgender athletes to seek their perspective, review research on the matter and submit recommendations to the council.
  https://www.npr.org/2023/03/24/1165795462/transgender-track-and-field-athletes-cant-compete-in-womens-international-events
  However, we do have evidence - we have 13 studies that show significant retained advantage. We have a number of other studies of males with lower testosterone levels with prostate cancer, we know what happens with training, and so I think collectively the picture is quite strong to suggest that advantages are retained.
  So I would be quite confident at this point that a policy that regulates women's sport by excluding male advantage, which includes trans women, is the evidence-based one.
  https://www.bbc.com/sport/61346517 - 11 May 2022
  In this study, we confirmed that use of gender affirming hormones are associated with changes in athletic performance and demonstrated that the pretreatment differences between transgender and cis gender women persist beyond the 12 month time requirement currently being proposed for athletic competition by the World Athletics and the IOC.10 This study suggests that more than 12 months of testosterone suppression may be needed to ensure that transgender women do not have an unfair competitive advantage when participating in elite level athletic competition.
  https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577 - May 17, 2021
  
  Responded to a comment above yours with sources etc. There's no good reason to exclude trans athletes from sports. Benefits diminish to a negligible point after ~2 years of hormone therapy. I do agree with you that the chess thing is ridiculous though
  
  Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=2ESahoCdQ28
  https://piped.video/watch?v=2ESahoCdQ28
  Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
  I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
  
  @blanketswithsmallpox
  @iridaniotter @BarrelAgedBoredom
  Yeah, non-trans women don't enjoy being forever 2nd because they weren't born men in physically competitive sport
  Some sports just have totally dominant competitors. I don't think all the men who lost to Michael Phelps enjoyed losing to him because they didn't get to be born complete genetic freaks that look like they were engineered in a lab to win at swimming. In many women's sports, the top (cis) competitors tend to have really beneficial genetics, including really high levels of testosterone compared to average. Losing to someone because their genetics help them be faster/stronger/taller is just how it goes in competitive sports. Losing to a trans woman is no different than losing to a cis woman who hit the genetic lottery.
  
  Yeah, non-trans women don’t enjoy being forever 2nd because they weren’t born men in physically competitive sport lol.
  The way you start your post is very telling. You'd have been better off leaving out the first two paragraphs.
  It doesn’t take years long studies to understand a woman who transitioned well into or after puberty is still built more physiologically man than women.
  Appeal to common sense. Also, why default to exclusion/discrimination rather than starting from a point of inclusion and make adjustments from there?
  When a man transitions into being a woman then wipes the floor with every one of her peers, there’s something wrong.
  That is not something that has been shown to happen to any significant degree. Seems like another appeal to common sense. Are trans women not allowed to win?
  I'm sure you're just a concerned citizen who wants what's best for all involved. 🙄

Why are men and women separated in chess competition at all? There is no logical reason other than sexism and transphobia. The reason the top women in the world are so far below the top men is because chess has historically been a man's game and the history of and continued sexism has no doubt kept out women who could be just as good as the best men. I play chess regularly online and have lost to both men and women. I wouldn't be surprised if several top chess players chose to leave fide in favor of other competitions over this.
- I'm a chess fan. Men-only events were abolished in the 1980s. There are now women's events (no men allowed) and open events (everyone allowed). In practice open events are 90% male, and the male players, especially at the lower levels, tend to fit the smelly and socially inept stereotype. Playing in them can be unpleasant for women, and women's events exist basically to provide playing venues where women can enjoy competitive chess while staying the hell away from us clueless males. As a clueless male myself, I can get behind that, no problem. I understand and I'm fine with it. How do cis women feel about playing alongside trans women? Idk, I'm cis male and I don't feel entitled to spout off about that. But I think they are the ones I'd want to listen to the most.
  The top levels from what I can tell aren't as bad as the lower levels, since the effort it takes to reach that level of chess tends to weed out the clueless and lazy. There is still bad stuff though, e.g. the incidents with GM Alejandro Ramirez.
  You might like the book Chess Bi tch (that is the title, damn censor bot),by WGM Jennifer Shahade reviewed here , about her experiences in both women's and open chess events coming up through the ranks.
  As for FIDE, there currently aren't really alternatives at the top levels. FIDE on the other hand is not much of a factor in lower and mid level chess. Those events tend to be regulated by national and ad hoc federations, etc.
  
  Does what cis women think about playing trans women really matter? You wouldn't give a racist a time of day for saying they don't want to play a black person, why should we care what TERFs think?
  
  Great comment, very insightful.
  Also, censor bot? Where is there a censor bot?
- Since men have been getting support and funding for over a century in sports and games like this, you end up with them dominating the field. Women's categories bring in more female players that otherwise wouldn't have a chance if the entire game was open only. But on the other hand, this enables concern-trolling over "transgender invasion". It's also applied questionably to sports that maybe don't need this such as in the case of Zhang Shan & Olympic skeet shooting. It can reinforce gender stereotypes. Finally, I'd say it's frustratingly slow at leveling the playing field.
- Having the current best female chess player, Hou Yifan, be at rank 55 and be the third woman ever to be in the top 100, while the second best woman, Aleksandra Goryachkina, is at rank 347, doesn't exactly paint a very gender-balanced playing field.
  
  I think the point is that the field should be left alone. Let players of both genders rank wherever they do. Seems odd to separate the genders for a non-physical sport.

It's fucking chess, a game of the mind. What possible relevance could being transgender have to a game of chess?
CHESS?!
- When did sexuality mattered in a game of chess? Like do trans people get a buff at thinking or something?
  
  The men can only move 1 square in any direction, while women can move anywhere on their row/column/diagonal. Clearly this biological difference is why they have separate men's and women's chess tournaments. Also, I hear trans people can double jump.
  
  The king also is a queen so that's not fair
  
  Men automatically get a +10 masculity buff. It's widely considered an overpowred stat in chess.
  
  Chess has long had different leagues for men and women

Oops, you gave it away! Turns out if you make this move you either admit:
That you think people who are biologically male have an advantage in mental only competition
That you want to punish transgender people for transitioning by taking away what they've earned and preventing them from participating in the future.
How completely and utterly shocking, that the trans people in sports "fairness" debate was just a badly put together costume for sexism and transphobia. I tell you, I'm more shocked about this than anything. Definitely.
- That you think people who are biologically male have an advantage in mental only competition
  Doesn't supporting gender/sex separated leagues existing at all imply exactly the same thing?
  
  no, it's a tool used to combat the overwhelming misogyny that makes it extremely unappealing for women to participate in. It's only effective when these orgs actually use other policies to work alongside it, which of course they never do.
  
  Im not too familiar with Chess, but is there gendered leagues with Chess? Cause if so that seems really weird.
  Like physical sports I understand a seperation and understand the need to regulate transgendered individuals due to physical difference between genders.
  But for a mental cognitive sport that seems ludicrous to do
  
  yes - but at least there you could argue that it's a historical relic.
  I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that the attitude that men are smarter than women (or at least, better at chess) didn't exist previously, and that's why they leagues are setup this way. But it's one thing to not change existing policies rooted in sexism, and another entirely to create new policies rooted in sexism.
  The former happens literally all the time, because large institutions are slow to change, and even though blatant sexism is no longer socially acceptable, it's still prevalent in peoples' heads. When the latter happens, it understandably causes more uproar, because it's an active move towards more sexist policies.
  Don't get me wrong, we should absolutely get rid of gender based leagues IMO and switch to having leagues based on ability (whatever the critical ability might be for the competition in question) and call it a day - that would solve both the sexism issue and the trans issue, as there would no longer be any "unfair advantages". What genitals a person was born with - whether they kept them or not - shouldn't impact how you're allowed to compete especially in an activity like chess that has no reasonable basis for gender separation in the first place
  
  IMO you've hit the nail on the head.
  These conflicts and confusions are the consequences of gendered leagues, but because the issues come up in the context of transgender people, it makes it seem like an issue with transgender people.
  Buuut then there is the issue of the representation of women in (most) popular professional sports is much lower, and would be worse without this delineation along gender lines.
  So what we need is to make up our mind if we want either:
  All sports to be as fair at all times as physically possible
  Or
  If we want to see all genders fairly represented in popular professional sports
  If it is the first, we should ungender the leagues. If it is the second, we should stop worrying about it and let transgender people compete wherever they want.
- Well, sometimes it is a physical competition. You can break your leg if you do a hard enough move!
- you think people who are biologically male have an advantage in mental only competition
  They do. There are two types of chess competition: open and women only. Women don't do well in the open competition which is why they added the women only competition.
  But it's not because men on average have an advantage. It's because men have a greater spread of chess ability so the very top men tend to do better than the top women.
  
  Something to keep in mind with studies are outside social factors such as less women playing chess and less women being exposed to chess at a young age. There are fewer women in chess and fewer girls learning chess, for probably centuries. This will have a factor when comparing two demographics.

Ah here we fucking go again... 20 years of progress lost.
Chess and eSports always do that. They're the perfect opportunity to demonstrate how, if you work on the social pressures and limitations that keep women/queer/trans people away from the sport, they can absolutely join in, compete, influence younger people, attract advertisers and so on. They can bypass the "bUt PhYsiCal DiffEnCeS" argument entirely, they're the perfect category for inclusive sports.
But without fail, after we get some progress, they come up with some way of absolutely setting everything back with new weird regulations, changes in funding, changes in language. It's bizarre. It's self sabotage.
- But without fail, after we get some progress, they come up with some way of absolutely setting everything back with new weird regulations, changes in funding, changes in language. It’s bizarre. It’s self sabotage.
  because it's on purpose. They're bigots, this is what bigots do to fight social progress.

Wow, Fuck FIDE
Given the current FIDE president is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkady_Dvorkovich
It's not much of a surprise.
- Does he have a history of conservative nonsense or something?
  
  He's a hard-core insider in Russian Politics. He was the Deputy Prim Minister under Dmitry Medvedev for years. He's been heavily involved in Moscow politics for years.

But you don't understand! Clearly trans women having a different bone density gives them an unfair advantage because of, uh, something something integrity of sports.
- You see, she hasn't been on estrogen long enough to be as emotional and illogical as cis women, giving her an advantage in such strategic and intellectual pursuits as Chess. This isn't one of the few board games that women can compete on a level playing field with men, like Shoots and Ladders or Candyland.

I like how this manages to be both transphobic and like insanely sexist. Way to go, FIDE! Can you guys work homophobia or racism in there for a hat trick?

This shit doesn't even make sense. It's God damn chess! Men and women don't have different minds. You might have a case with physical sports, maybe (IDK anymore; used to think women were not able to be as physical strong as men due to physiology, but even that seems like it is inaccurate with new studies), but there is no such case to be made with a mind. Human brains are human brains. The body they are encased in doesn't change them fundamentally.
- You might have a case with physical sports, maybe (IDK anymore; used to think women were not able to be as physical strong as men due to physiology, but even that seems like it is inaccurate with new studies),
  I feel like the fact that the top leagues in most sports are open to both genders but it's basically unheard of for females to be even close to be good enough to join, proves there is a massive difference at those levels.
  For example women can play in the NBA, some have tried, only one or two got close, but none have played a game.
  What research are you referring to that says there is no advantage?
- Men and women don't have different minds.
  Chess stats don't agree with you on that. Men have a greater spread of chess ability than women. ie. the bottom end of men are significantly worse than the bottom end of women but also the top skilled men are better than the top women.
  
  Maybe if they played together instead of separately things would change, considering how it is played and what the logic employed entails. You might not know how to deal with en passant if you've never seen it used.
  
  Girls are made to feel unwelcome in chess environments at a very young age. Of course once many drop out because of cultural pressure, the remaining small sample size will have less spread than the larger population of men who have been made welcome in chess environments their whole lives.
- I'm pretty sure it's just that greater male variability In most traits means that extreme upper echelon of men are better than the extreme upper echelon of women.

Someone tell me why there is even a "womens chess" for them to insanely bar trans people from, gender doesn't affect chess in the 1st place.
- In case you don't know - there are two categories: open and women-only. Anyone can compete in open, no matter what their gender/sex is. Women can also compete against other women only if they want. It's definitely not like "oh you're a woman, you can't compete here, it's only for men".
  
  But let me call myself a women so i can stop being 10th place and take 1st in women league
- I'm waiting to hear a reason that doesnt go back to some tired stereotype in the lines of "Men are smarter than women, so its not fair".
- Historically, women did not feel welcome at open chess tournaments. Chess talent was seen as synonymous with intellectual brilliance, so some men would not take it well when they were beat by a woman. I like to think that this has changed, but there's probably still an element of this. Regardless, women's tournaments were set up so that women who wanted to play chess competitively would have an opportunity to do so safely and without the fear of harassment. They still exist because people still compete in them and enjoy them, so why stop?
  
  Thank you.

Whole dang game is about coming out as trans and violently abolishing the patriarchy and they ban trans women from top level play smh

There are too many women in chess after the popularity of the queen gambit, said FIDE. What can we do or say to get them go away?
Really, what is the nationality of the FIDE leadership? Are they Russia? I remember a lot of famous Russians playing.
- Yes the current leader is a generic russian politician/stooge, but the previous leader was a real firecracker! He claimed to have been abducted by aliens and to have visited their planet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirsan_Ilyumzhinov

Ah yes, men and women are physically built differently so trans women have an advantage because they can... grip the chess pieces better with their bigger hands, and crush the pieces/flip the table more easily due to their increased strength. Makes total sense.

What the hell? There is no possible (meaningful) reason for this...

Now wait a minute. I can see why there are issues with males transitioning to female participating in female sports because a man is clearly advantaged over a female but in mental activities what does it matter?
- From what I've been able to gather, when gender is anonymous like in online chess men and women seem to compete pretty comparably, but in real life women appear to compete worse against men than other women. Maybe they feel intimidated, idk, but that's what the data seems to show.
  
  Yeah I feel like it's mostly a cultural thing. In the past, women were discouraged (and at a certain point not allowed) from playing chess, so it's always been a male dominated hobby
  In general, women tend to be reluctant to get into male dominated interests and occupations when there isn't a welcoming, large enough space for them (e.g. depending on gender roles and expectations, some countries have mostly male doctors, some have an equal amount of male/female doctors, and some have mostly female doctors). So there isn't exactly a large enough pool of women who care enough to really get into chess and make achievements in it. it's also just, kind of a boring hobby to get into imo

What a weird way to go about it. Knowing a small amount about chess ratings the loss or changing of title does in some ways make sense though in the way that the bar for a woman to be considered GM is lower than a man. So effectively you would have a title that may have a rating requirement higher than your pre-transition rating. I get that part…. But the rest?
These are weird rules that really don’t need to be there and I hope too GMs speak out against this in both the male and female sections. There has been quite a bit of drama in the chess community in recent years over what is essentially gender discrimination. So another stain on chess with this one.
Editing to add: the differing rating requirements in an intellectual game are very strange to begin with. There are many women who meet the requirements of being a GM(male) rather than a WGM and they’re a significantly smaller portion of the overall chess players

I really wish posts like this included more interesting discussion, instead of 90 % of people just white knighting how shocked they are and how awful this is!
Yea we get it after the first comment, you don't need to post the same shit over and over.
My personal genuine question is to women, how they feel about transgender women in their sports? For physical sports I'd imagine it matters even more.
Chess is just a brain game so it really shouldn't matter at all, but I'd still love to womens opinion on the subject.
- Woman here, and genuinely, I don't know what's right.
  I can recognise that m>f after puberty gives someone a strength advantage but at the same time it's hard enough having to transition without feeling even more marginalised by being banned from sports.
  Maybe there needs to be just a women's and open category to recognise the strength handicap that cis women have for certain activities and allow anyone to compete in open, but then there's the challenge of prize money, viewers etc etc between the two that also needs to be managed appropriately.
  At the end of the day, someone isn't going to be happy and for that there is no good solution, but we need to be doing our best for cis and trans athletes to make sure everyone has a chance to compete in the sports they live.
  Chess? Banning trans competitors is fucking idiotic and the chess federation can fuck right off with that implied notion of women being less capable.
  
  Maybe there needs to be just a women's and open category to recognise the strength handicap that cis women have for certain activities and allow anyone to compete in open, but then there's the challenge of prize money, viewers etc etc between the two that also needs to be managed appropriately.
  I'm fairly certain that this is already the case, and what's being done here as well. Specifically that there isn't a "men's" category, there's open, and there's women's. In chess specifically it's a strange situation. My understanding is that the existence of "women's chess" isn't due to any inferiority of play (though there's undoubtedly some sexism in its origin) but rather as a way to entice women to play and grow the sport. There's no restrictions on a woman being granted the grandmaster title, but a man can't hold a Women's Grandmaster title.
  Not keeping your women specific titles as a trans man at least tracks for that. As to not being able to compete as a trans woman I don't really see the point. I could see an argument for resetting your ELO because there is a lower ELO pool in women's chess (due to population, nothing enforced) and your ELO could be unduly skewed, but idk. That's kinda getting beyond my competitive chess knowledge
  Tldr; this is probably dumb and misguided, but maybe not as hostile as the headline first looked to me
  
  Hang on a sec...
  I can recognise that mf after puberty gives someone a strength advantage
  This is the sort of thing that is said in these conversations, as if it is simply fact. A common sense truth that we all agree on.
  But it's not. Transgender women might retain some advantage after transition, but they also might not. That is something that is intensely studied, and hotly debated. Results have been found to support either hypothesis, and may differ from sport to sport. It's not cut-and-dry in the slightest.
  
  In most sports the men's group is technically open. Most women just don't succeed because of the sheer difference in physicality.
  
  It might help you to understand that there has been a lot of study in many sports (for the very reason of your uncertainty).
  Apparently, testosterone level (not birth gender) is the effective indicator of expected performance. In all women's sports that allow trans competitors, trans individuals need to test **lower ** testosterone levels than are naturally allowable in cis women.
  The issue is this. For someone trans to be willing and able to power through all the bullshit, they need to be uniquely dedicated and talented (or they'd just not do it). What that means is that unsurprisingly some trans individuals are absolutely phenomenal at a given sport.
  Ultimately, there's the problem. "We" seem to think a m>f individual doesn't have an unfair advantage ONLY if they lose. So we're not looking for the average or variance of skill, only the fact that there exists a trans individual that shines. It's hard not to look at a trans woman winning and say "see, that's what happens when someone born male competes with a woman in this sport". But it's also unscientific, as the science says trans women compete with comparative attributes to cis women.
  Chess? Banning trans competitors is fucking idiotic and the chess federation can fuck right off with that implied notion of women being less capable.
  Yeah, there's no real defense to the two being separated in any league.
  
  The solution is easy, just open more categories ciswomen, transwomen and anyone who identifies with the female gender. Same for men. Done.
  
  I just don't think there's a blanket answer, that doesn't involve invasive poking and prodding. There's always going to be somebody unhappy.
  Any pro-trans decision, like just opening it up and having ability ranked categories is in danger of sidelining women's sports. But... they are anyway...
  England have just reached the women's World Cup final in Australia. I look out the window right now, and I don't see a single England flag. For the men's tournament last year there was so many flags about you'd think we'd just crowned a new king on St George's Day. People were playing "Three Lions" for the 13th major tournament in a row. And we did fucking rubbish in that compared to the ladies.
  It's strange the these people "protecting women's sports" are completely absent when it comes to supporting them.
- "Discussion" about this is just transphobic concern trolling, so it's not necessary.

This whole transgender people in sports "debate" (a debate should have good arguments on both sides, this one doesn't) is nothing but shitass boomers punishing people they think are "weird" for no other reason than spite.

Haha what a joke, do they think anyone will take them seriously after this? Who's running FIDE, Putin?!
Alas I have no interest in chess myself, but if I did, I'd stay far, far away from bigots and fascists like this lot have revealed themselves to be.

Yikes... That's fucking gross.
Hopefully there's some kind of backlash from chess players and community figures, this is absolutely vile.
Honestly lately I'm kinda just losing hope in humanity, and wondering if LGBT folks will ever be accepted in society. Seeing what little progress we acquired over the past century or so be undone so easily is crushing.
Fuck FIDE, fuck Russia, and fuck all the ignorant, hateful bigots that keep fighting against people's very right to exist.
- IDK why you're singling out Russia. I doubt the president has dictatorial control over this, and the council has members from all over the world. The whole org seems to be captured by reactionaries. Did the Russian chess federation spearhead this or something?