If you believe that voters have a duty to candidates, rather than candidates having a duty to voters, then you do not really believe in democracy.
Even in the Roman republic they understood that the candidates had to bribe the people to care about the nobilities power struggles.
We don’t even have the gracchi equivalents to get murdered for promising us land reform. They ratfucked the moderate with offerings of college and healthcare.
Because that’s politics and libs are revolted by icky pedestrian politics. They don’t want a base that has to be satisfied, they want a coalition of the reasonable who vote for blue no matter who not because they’ll get anything out of it, but because the qualified people told them that’s what they have to do to have the respect of the qualified people.
"not voting is a vote for trump"
"not voting is a vote for biden"
"not voting is a vote for trump and biden, which is voter fraud"Joe Biden owes me $2000
The liberal brainrot under Trump is going to be magnificent to watch. Fuck libs. Fuck their support of genocide. Fuck their support of child migrant cages. Fuck their nonchalance about universal healthcare and most of all fuck America.
They better deliver some primo drama, because the schadenfreude is some of the only consolation as terrible things continue happening under a slightly different guy.
Lol yeah but the real hope is people wake up to the flawed system and that genocide is not self defense (libs are fucking insane at this point).
remember kids, winning votes is about calling people that you think are potential allies imbeciles for not getting behind a guy that's actively egging on genocide
I don’t think liberals view us as potential allies. They view the left the same way Fritzl viewed his family.
Holy shit
And they shouldn't view leftists as allies. Nobody on here says liberals are "allies" and at the same time people here expect liberal politicians to be allies? I don't know why people get so worked up and upset about people doing exactly what makes sense.
There's a bizarre thing where people on this forum and twitter and elsewhere act like they're the pets of liberal politicians and feel hurt when they aren't taken care of. While also literally saying liberal politicians are their enemy. Stop trying to have it both ways. Either say "scratch a liberal" or post about how "the Democrats are making bad political moves 😢😥"
I think the whole "not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump" thing clearly works because it makes people on here and twitter so irritated it feels like every fourth post is complaining about liberals calling "us" Trump supporters.
If you're not going to vote for Joe Biden, at least own it and stop acting hurt by liberals calling you a trump voter.
This reference brought me down a very dark rabbit hole
Voting for Hillary was a vote for a Trump
Throw away vote for a non viable candidate that could never win
How does these types react to answers politely scolding them for being counterproductive, like:
Voter shaming doesn't work. It just makes you look like an asshole and makes your candidate look off-putting by association. If you want to do your party a favour, get them to run on a platform that people can support.
it only makes them angrier because it should work
try going into one of these threads and saying "I will absolutely vote for Biden, but..." and then make all the arguments we would normally make and they'll still go fucking sicko on you
Lol. Trump is a fascist
So I think he's better off in the proto-fascist category tbh but quibbling details aside it's always worthwhile pulling people up on this because:
a) If Trump really is a fascist then what resistance did they mount against his administration while he was in power?
(Which belies their claim that they actually believe he is a fascist and/or that they are opposed to fascism; if Hitler comes to power tomorrow, are you going to write mean-spirited comments bodyshaming him on social media throughout the day and then rest easy in the knowledge that you did your best to resist fascism?)
b) If they are invoking history—and they are—then they deserve a crash course in the history of the twilight of the Weimar Republic:
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Hitler wasn't elected into power, he and his ministers were appointed to essentially all the levers of power in the Weimar Republic, so voting against Hitler wouldn't have achieved anything.
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The SPD formed a coalition with the Nazis and Von Hindenburg to establish a government, meaning that the party which was for all intents and purposes much further left than the Democrats are today not only failed to oppose Hitler's rise to power but they actively facilitated it by being willingly complicit in it (see screenshot below).
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Prior to the coalition government, the SPD held power in government and used that to crack down on the KPD and the paramilitary arms of the party while letting brownshirts run rampant across Germany, terrorising the people (especially Jewish people, queer people etc.)
So if their argument is that we need to learn from history to stop fascism, what lessons have they drawn from their investigation of history exactly?
To vote fascism out? To vote for the fascist-enabler party to prevent fascism from seizing power?
These people are deeply unserious.
Liberals act like Trump winning would be "the end of democracy" and that voting Biden is our only chance to save it, but if you press them on this, or lurk their private spaces, and ask them specifically what they think Trump winning a second term will entail, they'll usually cave and admit they think the basic institutions of the US government will likely survive another Trump term, he'll just throw a bunch of wrenches in the works and do bad stuff. This r/neoliberal thread shows this, half the commenters are admitting a second Trump term would likely be the same as the first, the country will survive but Trump and his gang with do a bunch of shenanigans.
So they know they're being hyperbolic. And it's hurting them, people remember the Trump presidency and things are about the same now as they were then. Nobody is buying the histrionics. So why are they doing it? A more honest presentation of the situation, "hey another Trump term will suck, voting Biden is just basic harm reduction" would probably be more convincing to average voters, and why focus so much energy on the tiny minority of anti-electoralist leftists in the country? They're totally shooting themselves in the foot here.
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If (any ranking politician in the imperial core) really is a fascist then what resistance did they mount against his administration while he was in power?
If it's anything, there's a case to be made that Hitler was often a hindrance to the Nazi party efforts and if he got taken out then he might have been replaced by someone more competent and effective. Idk enough to know the truth of that claim but I can see how it could be valid.
Then there's all the usual criticisms that come with adventurism (shout out to the RadLib I'm in a discussion with elsewhere who said "Terrorism is based! That's what we [anarchists] are all about!" - exactly the kind of mentality that had Ukrainian anarchists joining the front at the start of the civil war to oppose fascism and then turning around and joining the fascists - because they were better armed and better organised
)So what does that leave us with? It's always the same answer - agitate, educate, organise.
Fascists, who aren't of the street gang variety, are typically well organised and well supported. The only viable way of mounting a meaningful resistance to them is by having a strong party, a strong movement, and strong ties to the broader community.
It's exceedingly unlikely that there will be a pivot point of history where you can personally stop fascism with a single act. Even more unlikely that you'll be there at the right time, in the right place, with the right resources. Fascism is a systemic rot, not just the figurehead of a movement.
And it's always worth considering that even if you happen to find yourself at a pivot point in history with the right resources, the chips aren't necessarily going to fall in your favour - arguably the assassination attempt on Bolsonaro brought him mainstream attention and elevated his political career. Reagan polled markedly better after his assassination attempt. I'm not going to armchair quarterback history or anything but often there are unforeseen circumstances and unexpected consequences that come with drastic actions.
If Trump really is a fascist then what resistance did they mount against his administration while he was in power?
I Am Part of the Resistance Inside the Trump Administration by Anonymous
Robert Mueller
Mike Pence
Ruthkanda
SPD held power in government and used that to crack down on the KPD and the paramilitary arms of the party while letting brownshirts run rampant across Germany
After WW1 they did drowned in blood not even one but something like five or six revolution attempts, but when the fash attempted a coup (Kapp putsch) they planted heads in ground like ostrich and it were the workers who saved them as usual.
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If you want me to vote Democrats maybe pick one who isn't pro-genocide? Geez
i think they censured her
If you voted for Trump it would be two votes for Trump. Quick mafs.
A vote for third party is a vote for Biden
As someone who's never step foot in the USA, I will not be voting for Biden.
I am sorry comrades for voting for Trump.
Trump has about a 35% ceiling for fascist voters in the US
what the fuck does this mean? 35% of what exactly? what do they mean by ceiling? are they saying only 35% of voters will vote for Trump? if that's the case then
will win easily so what the hell does it matter? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOnly about 2/3 of eligible voters actually do so in elections, which is a sign of a healthy democracy.
I think this person meant to say floor. As in 35% will always vote for a Republican no matter what.
No they probably meant ceiling. Despite the propaganda fascism is actually unpopular. People really don't like trump.
If Trump is a fascist, why aren't Democrats doing everything in their power to stop him? Why aren't they stuffing the court? Why aren't they going after his states? Why aren't they kidnapping him and breaking his knees? If he really is a fascist then there is no excuse for taking the maximum amount of action to stop him. If you could prevent Hitler coming into power by offering free college to Weimar Germany, wouldn't you do it?
"But if we cross the line then we lose something as a country and damage our democracy!"
Okay so if playing by the rules puts us in a situation where fascists can win and non-fascists lose (twice) then what good are the rules? Why are you okay with preserving the status quo if it results in fascism?
Like, at some point, you have to start thinking about stuff further than memes you see on r/WhitePeopleTwitter.
If you could prevent Hitler coming into power by
I mean I'd just vote for 99% Hitler; someone like Mengele or something, and you just KNOW Mengele was much less than 99% Hitler. Everything would've turned out okay.
Biden is also a fascist and is currently actively supplying the bombs being used in the genocide of the palestinian people.
If you think you can convince anyone to vote for a man performing a genocide, you have a surprise coming. You are asking people to endorse a genocider by arguing someone else will be an even worse genocider.
At what point are you going to realise that the system is broken and that continuing to take part in it is just endorsing the system? Stop wasting your time with it and work with people aiming to replace it.
Is hex even still connected with lemm.ee? Haven't seen anyone from there in a while, might be wasting my time.
Hexbear is still federated with lemm.ee but I think the vast majority of them individually blocked us, or were banned by us.
We have a very strict guidelines on here about keeping queer users safe from harassment, and whoops turns out a lot of people just can't stop flinging slurs around in DMs. So our (very good and cool) admins/mods have a huge number of users from other instances banned.
Yes, America is a two party fascist state. It genuinely does not matter who I vote for for President, fascism is the only outcome. I can, occasionally, minimize the levels of fascism close to me when certain candidates win primaries near me, even though that is also pretty minimal, but it does have much more of a real impact than voting for President. Biden, in particular, has shown absolutely zero indications that he is better than Trump in policy.
primaries
Those are funny things. Wasn't Biden one of the least supported candidate in the last primaries with Bernie leading and multiple people between them? Then all of them suddenly supported Biden, and Bernie supported Biden too eventually. Weird how that democracy works.
You know what the saddest part is? I didn't even expect Bernie to be not-fascist (at least in terms of foreign policy), I just wanted to see how the system would handle him. We certainly got our answer, primaries that would have been called election fraud if they had occured in any under-developed country.
I keep looking into the primaries and the way that it looks to me they can just pick anybody regardless of the "votes." Why would Primaries ever be the answer when we need to pick a good 3rd party and run it home?
Yeah primaries are certainly not the answer. I was specifically talking about local elections shit, but even that doesn't work most of the time, these last couple of times I've had two complete shitbirds to vote for (even the so called 'progressive' candidate is a complete mess) and the progressive one shits the bed in the primaries and the establishment Dem candidate shits the bed in the general.
Hasn't Biden been better with the NLRB, and climate? He also did that big infrastructure bill, and pardoned people in jail on weed offences.
Like he's been objectively better than trump on domestic policy. And I don't see any reason to think trump would have cut funding to Israel.
What the fuck are you talking about about? He literally broke up the rail strike, invested in hydrogen infrastructure (a type of fuel that isn't green and pretty much everyone has commerically abandoned) instead of building actual infrastructure such as trains or affordable housing, and only pardoned people with federal weed offenses, which accounts for less than 1% of all weed related convictions.
I'd argue that he has been worse for domestic politics because people have literally stopped paying attention to the bad shit the American government does domestically as naturally as breathing. He has increased the funding of the border from Trump, lost access to abortion for millions of women, opened up more oil drilling permits across the U.S. and has repeatedly fumbled on trans rights and COVID policy. Nothing has actually changed policy-wise, just optics.
I don't think Trump would have cut funding to Israel, but that doesn't mean I have to vote for either genocidal removed.
Permanently Deleted
So the conclusion is that nothing good can ever happen because something worse could happen.
for the privileged and comfortable liberal, that makes sense to them. they're fine, the important thing is "nothing will fundamentally change"
This year I’m voting Democrat
The fed posting the last 2 weeks has been exhausting wtfisgoingon
I don't think this is a fed, it's literally just how most democrats think.
there's only one person you can vote for to save democracy
only one person i can vote for? sounds like the democracy is already gone
Just constant ghoul liberal posts from instances with the worst url you can imagine. I'm learning about so many new Lemmy instances full of people who need to be pushed into a pit.
What's really funny is the corollary for Never Trump Republicans: by voting 3rd party or refusing to vote, they're actually voting for Biden.
I think this is called an ontological error?
(feat. me when my conservative parents told me they still don't want a 2nd rodeo on the trump train)
If you only have one candidate from one party who can save democracy or else all falls into evil fascism, and you absolutely refuse to do anything to restrict your opponent’s candidate and party, you are a fascist
If half of your country is operated by the fascist party and the other party exists to capitulate to them, then you're living in a fascist country.
Neither party really matters and it's all theater. Everything is run by the rich and by the police when rubber meets the road. As we saw in 2020, passing legislation against the police does nothing and they ignore it. Laws mean nothing when they are not enforced or followed. The police cartel have a chokehold on USA, there's no democracy whatsoever it's a farce
The calculus is simple:
What good do I do doing something over doing nothing. If doing nothing seems better than the doing something, maybe you should be looking at what you wanted them to do, and why they dont want to do it.
Lol it really is the trolley problem in real life. Except instead of track 2 being just one person, it’s the same number of people as track 1 but this time the conductor switches shift with a minority conductor
Not voting is also a vote for Trump sweaty
Biden received 81 million votes in 2020 which is about 28% of all Americans adults, meaning.. 72% of USians are fascist MAGAts
72% of USians are fascist MAGAts
And further implication of that logic is that if not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump then Magahats are apparently correct and the elections were fraud.
I swear these fricks view people's lives like it's some sports game and then blame the people when they lose like embittered soccer hooligans.
What having no skin in the game does to a mf
A vote for anyone that isn't Trump is a vote for Biden. How dare you let down the God-Emporer Trump!
Should've gone with "My dude, I live in Alabama/California/Texas/New York/Wyoming/Hawaii/Oklahoma/Washington, my vote doesn't matter anyways, so I'm going to vote for someone who isn't trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza."
You can now add florida to that list thanks to the unceremonious apathy of the Florida Democratic Party and their inability/disinterest in getting the DNC to fund them properly at all.
This doesn’t matter to them and you’ll be browbeaten and talked down to regardless. Every
counts and they want to be able to hold that meaningless popular vote up as proof that their choice was actually just cheated out of victory by the dastardly Electoral College.liberals plan not to lose challenge. rating: impossible
