Neopronouns are not trolling
Neopronouns are not trolling
I've been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.
So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you're unfamiliar with. It's true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren't only to be respected when you like the person you're interacting with, or if their pronouns "make sense" to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn't matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.
I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.
This isn't a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it's not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.
I feel like a lot of people here have forgotten what Titles are and are just lumping in gender in there now.
Titles are what people used to use to describe what they are (muse, philosopher, dilettante for example) and wasn't restricted to work.
So as one commenter here pointed out, goth, jock, etc would be titles, if used.
Gender was always meant to help identify where in the spectrum of sex one is. Whether that be male, female, both, neither, slightly female, etc.
Y'all are free to say your gender is goth, or as one user on Lemmy is becoming infamous for, Dragon; but you'll likely not be taken seriously, and ultimately you'll be setting back both progression for oppressed minorities as well as already existing accomplishments.
PS: op should say what neopronouns are for those who may not know.
My only problem is when i use singular they them for someone and they have a problem with it. I speak hungarian natively which has no grammatical gender nor gendered pronouns and it makes so much more sense. The whole thing about gender neutral language doesnt exist. But what makes me mad is that other languages that have genders solved it while english is still messing around and every time i use singular they or dude/guy as gender neutral, someone with neopronouns or a right winger has to point out how im incorrect. This is of course not pointed at those who use neopronouns, just as someone who speaks a language where pronouns dont matter it feels kinda useless.
100%.
You don't get to decide if another person's identity is valid or not. That's literally just transphobia, and perpetuating that inside our own community is truscum behavior. An individual person has the final word on who they are, what they're called and how to correctly refer to them.
As Cishet white-ish person, who is only tangentially connected to this community IRL, but wants to be supportive, is there a definitive list of pronouns? It seems to me and many other people that if you just keep adding more and more, people get confused and or feel alienated and then some people get angry when confused, because they get frustrated and don't want to do the wrong thing.
I usually default to "they" unless absolutely told, because It seems that once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts. We may as well just abolish all pronouns and only use proper nouns.
Side question, I'm neurodiverse (diagnosed ADHD, probably a bit on the spectrum), I feel very very weird before coming out to people, especially at work, as I think it will be used against me. There are still places in this world that would hurt/imprison/kill non-cis, non-hetero people. With such an interconnected world, especially with those places, how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn't putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
Holy shit this thread has become a prime example of why we love you so much Ada, I've literally never seen a safer place on the internet before and I'm including my own community I run outside of lemmy.
Endlessly defending trans people and banning all those who refuse to accept basic rules, it's incredible although disturbing seeing how many transphobes have come out of the woodwork.
Thank you, Ada. I truly wish it had not come to this, but making this post is one of a very few good choices you could make in such an awfully difficult situation. I respect your vision and commitment for the space you want to create here and I hope it works out for the best.
humans are not perfect so both sides could be wrong or both correct or some mix so idk im being hypothetical so i expect to be incorrect
take note bluesky this is how to build trust and safety 💙
and it's another reason why i love it here 💞
Thank you.
i don't get why its so hard for people to use the block function and move on, i was sick of hearing about dragonfucker the second i saw dragonfucker crying victim in every thread on my feed. other comments have outlined my feelings on neopronouns so i wont get knto that
it felt trolly and disingenuous the way that dragonfucker was going about it, so i used the block function because it was exhausting to look at. shouldn't be more complicated than that
I love how this gets posted for community members, in a meta community, talking about how to engage with our space to not get banned, and then every loser from all comes in here like "umm actually you can't police my speech and umm pronoun bad" and promptly gets banned for being transphobic and breaking the rules that this post said will be enforced.
the mods and admins are doing a good job here, thanks for all your hard work you put in to make one of my favorite spaces on the internet as wonderful as it is.
I don't care for neopronouns, but it also doesn't matter what I think. If it's REALLY a problem for me, like that person who's gender identity is divinity and the pronouns that person uses are capitalized, I just won't refer to that person. (Seriously, that does bother me, not that person's gender in general but referring to anyone, fictional or not, Like This.)
i bite my thumb at anyone who complains about drag. the most drag has ever done is correct people and VERY OCCASIONALLY call out when someone is actively belligerent about it.
reckon how folks treat our dearest dragonfucker is pretty good insight into how they’d react to myriad other similar social situations. this heavily contributes to why i have very little patience for folks “just asking (bad faith) questions” about it.
Thank you. it is mindboggling that supposed trans allies can tell people they aren't valid without seeing their hypocrisy.
Very good post, I agree with everything said.
However I have a followup issue, I use Voyager primarily for Lemmy. I don't have any way to see bios (to my knowledge) in the app, so therefore I cannot see pronouns unless they are in someone's username. I have one of the "user tags" set up for drag specifically and will for any other neopronouns needed, but that requires someone correcting me before I can create it.
My question is, is there a way that this issue can be overcome? Id prefer to not move apps if it's possible as i like Voyagers UI but I will if I must.Also, this is not really related, but do you happen to have a post or explanation you can link to about some drama between the shit-just-works instance and Blahaj? I heard that there was some drama but I can't figure out anything other than the NCD@SJW community mod having beef with blahaj, but not anything between the SJW instance itself.
My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren't genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people, and the concept of gender fluidity in general. Kind of an extension of the "one joke" conservatives have ("hurr durr, I identify as an attack helicopter").
Obviously I can't say for sure that's what is happening, but I've read some of their comments that set off some red flags for me that maybe this person isn't being genuine.
I personally err on the side of caution, so I'd never purposely insult this person by calling them "him" or "her," but they'll remain a "they" to me, as that is still gender-agnostic not offensive to someone with "neopronouns" (as far as I understand it).
Your intentions are valiant. Can I ask for clarification with one section to ensure I don’t error within this instance’s rules?
A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling.
We’ve probably all seen the “one joke” of transphobes/nonbinaryphobes attempting a parody of preferred pronouns/neopronouns by choosing arbitrary or intentionally harmful terms. This link contains some examples of what I’m referring to:
Content warning: transphobia/nonbinaryphobia/misgendering, annoying visual glitch
In cases like these in which all contextual signs point to a person being disingenuous about what their pronouns are, are we the users still expected to speak as if that person is genuine and to use the pronouns they list until they state otherwise? As an example from the linked video, if I refer to Ted Cruz on this instance, must I use the neopronouns kiss/my/ass to be within the rules? (assuming Ted Cruz had yet to state a revision of pronouns)
In a more extreme case, let’s say somebody named User1 genuinely uses [neopronoun 1]/[neopronoun 2]/[neopronoun 3], which we understand to be totally fine. If a troll account named User2 joined this instance with undisclosed malicious intent and stated that their pronouns were [neopronoun 1 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 2 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 3 isn’t real], should the users/admins/mods each take that all on face value and refer to User2 with [neopronoun 1 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 2 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 3 isn’t real]?
In short, do the rules require that we refer to someone by the neopronouns that they state even if the surrounding context strongly suggests that they are a transphobic/nonbinaryphobic troll and that their statement of their pronouns is disingenuous and intended to be a harmful ridicule to transgender and nonbinary people?
When I see that somebody uses neopronouns and they appear to be in earnest, I respect and adhere to that and I appreciate that you do too. I do worry that there may arise some trolls who misuse our benevolent intentions and who attempt to mock and insult us by taking advantage of generous good faith and ultimately make things worse for all of us. Thanks for taking the time to address this and watching out for everybody.
If we have to have gender-specific pronouns, sure. While well-intentioned, that approach will never be perfect, it’s STILL categorising people into smaller and smaller groupings in contexts where categorisation is unnecessary. We’re jumping through linguistic loops so complicated that we need cue-cards for, when we could just use gender-neutral pronouns universally.
Bespoke pronouns are also only a “solution” in English, which (mostly) has no gender-specific suffixes for nouns. In the spirit of inclusivity German has recently misguidedly settled on just repeating the noun with male and female suffixes, “I have to go to the hairdresser or hairdresseress”. Unarguably more quantitatively inclusive, this grammatical monstrosity is also more severely excluding people that fit in neither category. The answer isn’t “everyone should additionally specify their own suffixes so we can list off more variations” but rather to stop caring what gender cuts your hair altogether. Hairdresser can be a gender-neutral word. Here’s to them.
Coskiis' stance on pronouns is very simple. Coskii will respect anyones pronouns up until those pronouns are more complicated than a beings name. At which point Coskii uses the beings name instead of any pronouns. Pronouns are meant to be a conversational shortcut. If a shortcut is not being made, Coskii does not feel the need to use pronouns.
Neopronouns are (generally) not more complicated than a beings name. Exceptions do exist.
Writing a message without using pronouns for explicit understanding of how and why pronouns exist in English in the first place, including personal pronouns, is certainly a mood. The flow of sentences is somewhere between legal and caveman. Not using pronouns leaves no wiggle room for any interpretation on the subject being discussed, however the lack of personal pronouns means Coskii must always refer to Coskii as Coskii. Thank goodness Coskii is not a terribly long name.
Love this, Ada. So nice to see another instance run by caring, respectful folk. Love from beehaw!
Before I curse my worst enemy I will ask their pronouns. Their right to identity is not based on my respect for them.
For everyone confused about neopronouns I would like you to consider what we could and could not do about them.
We could:
- Not respect them and let people bully neopronoun users
- Respect them and not let people bully neopronoun users
Doesn't really matter if you want to use the pronouns or not, clearly respecting neopronouns is the only good way to deal with the situation unless you want to give people free reign to just talk down to, misgender, and harass a group of users.
If gender means anything then some things are not gender. That's not "gatekeeping." It's a tautology. A word with no meaning is meaningless.
Lots of people in here who don't get pronouns or trans people, for those I recommend this article:
There's a very real chance you guys might be agender cis, which is super fascinating because it's barely looked into, due to how agender cis people usually don't even know that their experience isn't universal.
Without ever making a post on the Lemmy, I have donated to this instance every month for well over a year, amounting to hundreds. Your principled moderation is why I am here. I will forever be grateful for the space you've given us
I respect the chosen gender of whomever chooses their gender, but that's limited to he/she/they.
The gender spectrum is real and valid, but you will never make me refer to that dragonfucker idiot as "drag/drag".
I support gender expression, I do not support being made to speak nonsense words for attention seeking adult children.
Nonbinary and trans people deserve support, not the spoilt little shits who demand I refer to them by "glomph/glue'. And I resent the idea that they are equally valid concerns.
So yes, they are fucking trolling. They're not trolling me, they're attaching their bullshit to a class of people who deserve our respect and support, following them around wearing clown shoes and undermining their very real concerns.
If you support gender expression, then support the people trying to survive a world hostile to their very existence, not the people playing at it.
I respect all persons regardless of their genders, I really do, but if you ask me to use any pronoun aside from "he/she" or, if absolutely necessary, "they", you can go home. Stop making your gender, that almost no one cares about, the center of attention. You can have respect, but you can't demand I change my language for you.
Edit: didn't see this was a post on blahaj, by its admin. Sorry guys, I don't want to intrude on your blahaj conversations. It just showed up on my feed and I added my opinion to this topic in general. I hadn't considered instances as such strong contexts for conversation before. All the best to you, I really hope all genders or lack thereof can coexist peacefully some day
As always Ada, eloquently put ♥️♥️ thank you!
How Can Pronous Be Real If Our Eyes Aren't Real? /s
But actually, s/he & they are pronouns I'll use in everyday speech. Anything else and I tend to favor a person's name; it's just... You know, easier to facilitate a conversation that way.
Edit: oh I see this is from blåhaj. Nvm. I stand by my comment but I see I'm not the target audience.
Neopronouns are valid as hell and all these people who refuse to acknowledge that fact are by definition transphobic.
You cannot claim to support trans people while declaring a subgroup to be invalid because you think they're not doing it the right way. You are not an ally unless you support all trans people, people who use neopronouns are not the problem, you are.
Policing trans people makes you a transphobe.
I don't care what your pronoun is... Do you care what mine is?
and I don't care that you don't. Who the fuck are you? Who the fuck am I? Neither of us have any authority or agency over the other.
What bearing does either have? Don't define yourself by the attention or response you get from others. Stand on your own.
It's interesting from an outside ally pov to watch this community bend itself into a pretzel and practice some of the most inane mental gymnastics I've ever seen to accommodate individuals who demand unreasonable accomodations.
This is like listening to Christians explain how they know that they know that they know that they know, that their God is real and has dominion over all.
For myself I choose not to interact with those individuals as I find them utterly exhausting to interact with.
Neopronouns may indeed have their place, but so far I have found every single individual claiming one to be someone that I am thankful to never have any interaction with.
Thankfully I am not from this neck of the woods so when the mod deletes my comment and bans me without a single word, it won't be a big deal.
These people talking in 3rd person are absolutely and undeniably trolling and they're doing it to mock these communities. If they're generally civil, I guess who cares, they're just making fun of you, but a lot of them are just trolls who want to create division and upset people.
