Sheltered Reddit liberals finding out in real time that they're not in a pro-west echo chamber is fucking hilarious.
Sheltered Reddit liberals finding out in real time that they're not in a pro-west echo chamber is fucking hilarious.
Its like Hillary walking into a working class kitchen for the first time.
They've been shielded from even critical support of China and other AES for so long they literally, not figuratively, literally cannot process that people exist that have beliefs that aren't Reddit Approved. They immediately assume it's bots or wumao. Human beings can't possibly hold these beliefs, so they must be Oriental hordes or actual robots.
You're viewing a single thread.
Right because not being a shill for Xi makes me "pro-west." Please.
Its not about being a shill for Xi. Its about defending the country that went from having a 20% literacy rate to a country with its own space station in the span of 70 years. With railways and infrastructure that outshines those of the American empire, the richest nation in the history of the be world.
You may not call it socialism but it is still worth defending. My family and friends in China see improvement and growth before their very eyes. Dirt roads are now high speed rail. How many working class Americans can say things have gotten better in the last few decades? That they can afford to dine out more often, that they can afford a bigger apartment? How many can say their children are getting better educated, that schools are improving, that their extra curricular sports programs have gotten funding? How many can say that they've seen a new hospital built in a lower income area, or at all? I know households where the grandparents grew up literally illiterate, like animals they weren't given an education, without running water or electricity, and in leaner months would have to skip meals to pay the landlord. Today their bilingual grand children sit next to them in a home that they own, learning physics from a Livestream from the Chinese Space Station. Can you even conceive that level of improvement to a life, let alone a million, let alone a billion?
And the sheltered Reddit libs cannot understand that people would defend that. They cannot understand why people would defend that. They must be shills, there's no way anyone could genuinely defend a system that improved the lives of a billion people and abolished poverty. Our memes depict Xi as Winnie the Pooh, so those defending China must be robots or paid shills. No-one would actually defend China right?
But they have a lotta cameras
All the Chinese people in China who I totally really know in real life for sure. Those Chinese people in China that I totally really know all say they love love Xi. It's totally because they really really want to and not because dissent isn't allowed. They totally didn't start making grade schoolers go to several extra hours of school a day to learn to worship Xi 2 years ago btw. Also there is no air pollution in Beijing. Did I mention I totally know some Chinese people. You're all a bunch of sheltered white libs.....not like me. I mean yeah, I am a lib, only 15, white, and I do live in my parents basement.......but I know things, things that you don't. There's no way other people have any experience of the world so you have to believe, because I pretend......I mean DO, I do know some Chinese people in China and they are Chinese. They totally love their Chinese life in China where everyone has 120% literacy rate and reads 5 astrophysics books on their way to work in Beijing where there's no air pollution in China.
......China
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Sorry, which country is brainwashing people to worship their country from childhood? I forget.
Who said shit about worshiping the US? You guys are so pedantic. You are all worried about exact language when it comes to yourselves, but take all kinds of liberties when it comes to others. You don't even have any goal other than being an asshole. there's no actual discussion to be had. You just consistently make wild, inaccurate speculation in order to (try to) enrage people. You're so far off the mark though that it's completely impotent. Have good life auto-fellating your self-perceived intellect..
who said shit about worshiping the US
You said (baseless) shit about Chinese kids being forced into worshiping Xi
Go on, put two and two together as to why I might post Western kids being brainwashed into worshiping the US after that.
show us your penis
The kid is 15, let's not
Like I had to do a double-take because there is no way a sane person can write:
You're all a bunch of sheltered white libs.....not like me.
And then say:
I mean yeah, I am a lib, only 15, white, and I do live in my parents basement.......but I know things, things that you don't.
Immediately afterwards, like its beyond imagination, I initially thought they were elaborating and calling us 15 year old white basement dwellers.
Fucking sad, the level of highschool education in america.
You're really bad at this.
I am a lib, only 15, white, and I do live in my parents basement
yeah no kidding buddy. glad you're able to do some self reflection
It really just blows your mind that there are real people with real opinions based on their life experiences that don't reflect your biases, doesn't it.
This person is literally a white 15 year old and has no life experience
It's just evident that you don't actually have that real life experience. This is not what Chinese people say when not under duress. Something like 80% of Chinese people not living in China (read, who aren't forced to support the government) disapprove of the Chinese government. I've lived and worked with Chinese people. They don't say what you say they're saying. I've lived and worked in communist countries. It's not this socialist utopia you make it out to be. So yeah, it's pretty clear you don't have any idea what you're saying. You keep talking about "Experience" when it's obvious you don't have any......I do. So fuck off with your fantastical agenda pushing bullshit.
Something like 80% of Chinese people not living in China (read, who aren't forced to support the government) disapprove of the Chinese government.
Rich people who can afford to leave and settle permanently in a foreign land disapprove of Communist home country, shocking!
I've lived and worked in communist countries.
Were you with the CIA or...?
Thanks for telling me what 80% [citations needed] of all Chinese people (not counting the vast majority of them because they live in China) think. I'm sure they also appreciate being spoken for. Maybe people who like living in China don't see a reason to leave? Seems like a pretty obvious explanation, even if I ignore the statistic being direct from your ass.
Your "real life experience" is a pretty funny idea too, seeing as how you apparently think that all 1.4 billion Chinese people are so effectively controlled that even though they all hate living there they will never let their friends and family know. Seems like a fantasy to me. I could say that about the US "all Americans hate the us and want to leave but they aren't allowed to say so, so they pretend to like it" it would be patently stupid and there would be no evidence of it, so it'd be on par with your claims.
As far as a utopia, no one said that but you, it's just a strawman argument. It is impossible to make an argument that material conditions for people in China are not improving at one of the most rapid rates in the world.
Go to Sydney Chinatown and ask them what the opinion of China is and 80% will be pro China not against.
Strike up a conversation in Mandarin with a line cook or waitress, any one of the working class.
Having to pretend to dislike China is a defense mechanism, otherwise the cumskins will turn on you like you're a subhuman or a spy because they all have attitudes like you, which I do get reinforces the notion that overseas Chinese dislike China. But hate crimes against Asians are on the rise, so better safe than sorry.
We are not some brainwashed masses at the beck and call of the CPC, liberals like you just don't understand the concept of critical support. You're either 100% behind something or 100% against it.
So fuck off with your fantastical agenda pushing bullshit.
Posted with zero irony from someone with the username "Jesus" who is pushing the standard US state department line like he's worldly. show us your dick
It really just blows your mind that there are real people with real opinions based on their life experiences that don't reflect your biases.
^That's not a retorical question anymore btw.
If you are only 15, living in your parent's basement is normal. Also, this forum is for and by adults, please leave.
Can I see ur hog?
The Virgin coherent well structured fact-based essay v.s. The Chad passive aggressive unhinged NATO rambling
Waste of a username.
A literal socialist god, spent on this prick
chyna
CatholicSocialist I can help you just PM me a picture of your hog and I will divert the Hexbear bots from dunking on your dumbass...
How much did they pay you to say that?
- Username is CatholicSocialist
- Supports Cuba but not China
- Calls us libs
There's no way this isn't a bit.
if this guy turns out to be @LiberalSocialist in a tradsuit i'm gonna
I'm so convinced it's them.
we're so back
What makes a country "socialist"?
A society where public ownership of the means of production, a state controlled by a politically organized proletariat, and production for societal use rather than for profit is the principal aspect (main body) of the economy.
Key term here is principal aspect. There is a weird phenomenon from both anti-communists as well as a lot of ultraleft and leftcom communists themselves of applying a "one drop rule" to socialism, where socialism is only socialism if it's absolutely pure without a single internal contradiction. But no society in the history of humankind has been pure, they all contain internal contradictions and internal contradictions are necessary for one form of society to develop into the next.
If you applied that same logic to capitalism, then if there was any economic planning or public ownership, then capitalism would cease to be "true capitalism" and become "actually socialism", which is an argument a lot of right-wing libertarians unironically make. The whole "not true capitalism" and "not true socialism" arguments are two sides of the same coin, that is, people weirdly applying an absolute purity standard to a particular economic system which is fundamentally impossible to exist in reality, so they then can declare their preferred system "has never truly been tried". But it will never be tried ever because it's an idealized form which cannot exist in concrete reality, actually-existing capitalism and socialism will always have internal contradictions within itself.
If no idealized form exists and all things contain internal contradictions within themselves, then the only way to define them in a consistent way is not to define them in terms of perfectly and purely matching up to that idealized form, but that description merely becoming the principal aspect in a society filled with other forms and internal contradictions within itself.
A capitalist society introducing some economic planning and public ownership doesn't make it socialist because the principal aspect is still bourgeois rule and production for profit. This would mean the state and institutions carrying out the economic planning would be most influenced by the bourgeoisie and not by the working class, i.e. they would still behave somewhat privately, the "public ownership" would really be bourgeois ownership and the economic planning would be for the benefit of the bourgeoisie first and foremost.
A similar story in a socialist society with markets and private ownership. If you have a society dominated by public ownership and someone decides to open a shop, where do they get the land, the raw materials, permission for that shop, etc? If they get everything from the public sector, then they exist purely by the explicit approval by the public sector, they don't have real autonomy. The business may be internally run privately but would be forced to fit into the public plan due to everything around them demanding it for their survival.
Whatever is the dominant aspect of society will shape the subordinated forms. You have to understand societies as all containing internal contradictions and seeking for what is the dominant form in that society that shapes subordinated forms, rather than through an abstract and impossible to realize idealized version of "true socialism".
Countries like Norway may have things that seemingly contradict capitalism like large social safety nets for workers funded by large amounts of public ownership, but these came as concessions due to the proximity of Nordic countries to the USSR which pressured the bourgeoisie to make concessions with the working class. However, the working class and public ownership and economic planning never became the principal aspect of Norway. The bourgeoisie still remains in control, arguably with a weaker position, but they are still by principal aspect, and in many Nordic countries ever since the dissolution of the USSR, the bourgeoisie has been using that dominant position to roll back concessions.
The argument for China being socialist is not that China has fully achieved some pure, idealized form of socialism, but that China is a DOTP where public ownership alongside the CPC's Five-Year plans remain the principal aspect of the economy and other economic organization is a subordinated form.
Deng Xiaoping Theory is not a rejection of the economic system the Soviets were trying to build but a criticism of the Soviet understanding socialist development. After the Soviets deemed they had sufficient productive forces to transition into socialism, they attempted to transition into a nearly pure socialist society within a very short amount of time, and then declared socialist construction was completed and the next step was to transition towards communism.
Deng Xiaoping Theory instead argues that socialism itself has to be broken up into development stages a bit like how capitalism also has a "lower" and "higher" phase, so does socialism. The initial stage is to the "primary stage" of underdeveloped socialism, and then the main goal of the communist party is to build towards the developed stage of socialism. The CPC disagreed that the Soviets had actually completed their socialist construction and trying to then build towards communism was rushing things far faster than what the level of productive forces of the country could sustain and inevitably would lead to such great internal contradictions in the economic system to halt economic development.
The argument was not a rejection of the Marxist or Marxist-Leninist understanding of what socialism is, but a disagreement over the development stages, viewing socialism's development as much more gradual and a country may remain in the primary stage like China is currently in for a long, long time, Deng Xiaoping speculated even 100 years.
I recall reading somethings from Mao where he criticized the Marxian understanding of communism, but not from the basis of it being wrong, but it being speculative. He made the argument that Marx's detailed analysis of capitalism was only possible because Marx lived in a capitalist society and could see and research its development in real time, therefore Mao was skeptical the current understanding of communism would remain forever, because when you actually try to construct it you would inevitably learn far more than you could speculate about in the future, have a much more detailed understanding of what it is in concrete reality and what its development stages look like.
In a sense, that's the same position the modern CPC takes towards socialism, that the Soviets and Mao rushed into socialism due to geopolitical circumstances and did not have time to actually fully grasp what socialist development would look like in practice, and Deng Xiaoping Theory introduces the concept of the primary stage of socialism based on their experience actually trying to implement it under Mao.
Despite common misconception, the CPC's position is indeed that China is currently socialist, not "will be socialist in 2049" or whatever. The argument is that China is in the primary stage of socialism, a system where socialist aspects of the political and economic system have become the main body but in a very underdeveloped form.
EDIT: just to be clear the above is by u/aimixin
Right because not being a shill for Xi makes me "pro-west." Please.
I'm not pro-west I just only believe the literal exact narrative pushed by the US state department and the entirety of bourgeoise-owned media.
Buddy you have no clue what you're talking about.
Say something worth responding to at least. You choose to put "socialist" in your name yet you're angry people here might defend a socialist country and not spew the bile fed to you by media that is literally owned or controlled by the bourgeoisie. It's absurd.
Say what your problem is. Give me something to actually argue with instead of these non-answers.
I have like 200 comments from you crazy tankies in my inbox, do you think I have the time to write paragraphs to everyone?
I see you've had a run-in with our "Post"-based posting rules here. I could help explain them for you if you'd like?
I have no idea what this comment means.
Post Hog
HAHAHAHHAHAA HOLY FUCK, NEW SITE TAGLINE PLEASE!!!
you'll never be able to make proper leftist memes if you can't get that WPM up
Hi there. Check my comment history. It's no use arguing with these people who think they're experts on China. Don't waste so much time like I did.
Thank goodness you are, so you can tell us all about China from your position of expertise! Go on, give us your best materialist analysis of the current conditions of China, with reference to the surrounding literature and studies by Chinese economists! I need the enlightened take of a western China Understander!
Remind me, what other socialist state is getting the world out from under the thumb of US hegemony?
Considering China is a capitalist state much like America, not sure!
Have you done any reading on Socialism with Chinese characteristics?
Have you read "On the Governance of China"?
Li: At the moment, the Chinese the party state has proven an extraordinary ability to change. I mean, I make the joke: “in America you can change the political party, but you can’t change the policies. In China you cannot change the party, but you can change policies.” So, in the past 66 years, China has been run by one single party. Yet the political changes that have taken place in China in these past 66 years have been wider, and broader, and greater than probably any other major country in modern memory.
Pilger: So in that time China ceased to be communist. Is that what you’re saying?
Li: Well, China is a market economy, and it’s a vibrant market economy. But it is not a capitalist country. Here’s why: there’s no way a group of billionaires could control the Politburo as billionaires control American policy-making. So in China you have a vibrant market economy, but capital does not rise above political authority. Capital does not have enshrined rights. In America, capital — the interests of capital and capital itself — has risen above the American nation. The political authority cannot check the power of capital. That’s why America is a capitalist country, and China is not.
Profits of a corporation benefit its shareholders, usually concentrated to very few individuals.
Who are the beneficiaries when the profits go to the state?
Capitalism is when you execute capitalists for undermining the will of the state
Permanently Deleted
Damn where is America imprisoning and executing billionaires alongside harsh anti corruption campaigns in the government, maybe I'll move there
I don't care if they're holding people accountable for corruption. Why does a country supposably aiming for socialism have BILLIONAIRES in the FIRST PLACE??
They have them as a byproduct of Deng's reforms which allowed rapid development of the means of production, they need to be managed of course and suppressed by the people's democratic dictatorship, which they are. Eventually development will reach the point where they are no longer useful and can be fully done away with.
Mhm keep telling yourself that hun. That's a lot of words for "trust us bro the hyper capitalism is temporary"
China is hyper capitalist for executing billionaires and regulating the shit out of businesses deemed harmful for society?
You're wasting your time. You can't argue with someone who's working backwards form a predetermined conclusion.
They've made infinitly more progress eliminating billionaires than your flavour of socialism has
Really wouldn't be that hard to make a wealth cap but ok, keep sucking off the CPC (Capitalist Party of China)
Ok, do it then.
If anyone good was in Xi's shoes they'd do a much better job. We don't even know his wealth because there's no transparency with the CCP, shit he's probably richer than Elon.
Dogmatism and ideological purity are blinding you. It certainly should be a conversation about why billionaires exist in China, especially as they strengthen their safeguards against capital flight, but their existence alone does not discredit the great strides of progress China has made under SwCC in under a century. There are few examples of such a large mass of people seeing such substantive improvements in their lives. No matter the system, such dramatic change will result in unforseen consequences because there is so much change occuring. The measure of the response though is what is important: protecting themselves from capital flight, placing party leadership within corporations, focusing on carbon reduction through reduced pollution, tree planting, and alternative energy sources are all measurable ways the government is correcting. Where else do you see such response by those in power for their citizens? The Chinese approval for their government is incredibly high, and this is why
Is Chinese capitalism efficient, and has the government helped the people's material conditions (other than minorities/dissidents)? Yes. Are they aiming for socialism? No.
Counter point: yes they are.
it was either embrace partial capitalism or get strangled out of the world economy. Deng's reforms brought a massive influx of foreign investment and expertise.
Lol fucking NORWAY is less capitalist than China.
The wealth of Norway depends on the imperialist white supremacist settler colonial extractive ventures of the West. The wealth of China does not. Simple as.
This isn't about wealth. Does Norway have 12 year olds in factories? Tell me why Norway gives workers 3x more paid time off? Don't you think China's rich enough to make things better for workers?
Does Norway have 12 year olds in factories?
Literally yes, in third world countries.
3x more paid time off
They can afford to without the threat of economic domination by burgerstan, also see point 1 above.
China also is making things better for workers, moreso than America or even the declining Nordic states.
you're pro westThis community is hilarious because everyone acts like they're edgy cutting edge memers but all I've seen is PPB posted 40+ times, one copy pasta strawmanning libs, and three posts about how much fun it is to own the libs
Like I get circle jerking is fun but there is such thing as being bad at it. And I don't think this community is nearly as smart or funny as they think they are
And I mean come on you gotta PPB in reply to this! It's so funny! How could you not??
This community is hilarious
"I like it that/it's funny that" prefaces to rageposting don't hide the rage.
And I mean come on you gotta PPB in reply to this! It's so funny! How could you not??
You don't deserve anything better with your
tier cliche-ridden smug-about-nothing mediocrity.If you want to continue posting here, you have to share a dick pic.
Not for free buddy you gotta pay for those
AM I NOT ENTITLED TO THE SWEAT OF MY BROW
I believe that was from the monologue of a villain who is also a libertarian based on John Gault.
That lib is a blue curtained bazinga slinging
cliches and using format and delivery style, so of course there's quoting of dae le wholesome nonpolitical epic bideo bame where based guy with epic speech is to be emulated and imitated. 
Hog out or log out.
At least attribute the quote. This was Marx right 'The material dialectic of history has concluded without question that one must either produce the hog, or failing that remove oneself from dialectical analysis entirely'
How can you even be a Catholic and not pro-west? The literal state religion of the Western Roman Empire. The last vestige of the Roman empire. Spread by the sword throughout the world. Housed in Rome itself, the vile cesspit whose progeny still despoil and exploit this world. Real Jesus heads would never be down with a vile empire coopting his message like that.
Catholic
Worship Gnosticism as preached by
or be burned alive you fucking heretic.WTF does this even mean
It means this is god:
And this is his large adult son:
You people are very confusing.
Dumb fuck!
Who the fuck is the short chubby guy asshole?
short
HERESY!!! You dare doubt St. Bhagavan Shree Matt Christman's (PBUH) holy LARGE ADULTNESS? TRIAL BY MOUNTAIN DEW FOR THIS HERETIC!
Man you guys are weird.
Ah denial is but a pit stop on the road of acceptance, my devil worshipping brother in Satan!
Show me your dick.
I'm submitting this as your ban appeal
Based, really.
Ah yes, because the only way we could possibly admire the achievements of the Chinese state is because we were being paid to do so. Fuck off, creep.
No I think you're just in an echochamber that didn't wanna go full doomer because of how capitalist the entire world is. You wanted some hope for socialism so you clung onto China for false hope.
With the alternative being, what, exactly? Flaccid, impotent doomerism?
Their name is Catholic Socialist, so probably yes lmao
Well the world is almost all neoliberal hell so maybe that'd be better than supporting a fascistic hellscape because they have socialist aesthetics.
I support Cuba and various socialist movements... I don't pretend Xi is a well-meaning person.
Xi isn't China lib, and quit using the word fascism until you learn what it actually means
Nothing about Xi indicates that he isn't well meaning, and much more importantly the lives of hundreds of millions of people have been vastly improved during his governance as head of a dedicated communist party.
If you think the CCP is genuinely dedicated to communism I cannot take you seriously.
It's CPC and of course they are, there's no reason to believe otherwise apart from being a dumb little racist baby who thinks only white people can do socialism properly.
It’s CPC
What are you on about, it's both?
there’s no reason to believe otherwise apart from being a dumb little racist baby who thinks only white people can do socialism properly.
Maybe the fact it's a dictatorship with no power to the people? Tell me, what Chinese factory workers own their means of production?
Call me a racist? Cuba and Burkina Faso are true attempts at socialism, while the USSR under Stalin was not (Lenin was good though).
So you want Xi to press the communism button?
On a serious note, through a communist party controlled state, Chinese workers clearly have greater control over the means of production than workers anywhere else in the world. That's why they were able to use the resources their own labor created to do things like have an effective covid response.
Right? All these fucking tankies don't even believe that there's a current genocide against the Mongolians
Bunch of fucking insane nutcases here
Oh hey it's you again, I think you forgot to answer me in the other thread as well: what is your solution to the Ukranian puppet government's ongoing genoicide in the Donbas?
Honestly if Russia ONLY invaded Donbas I think I would support that. But you guys are clearly warmongerers that want as many dead Ukrainians as possible.
you guys are clearly warmongerers that want as many dead Ukrainians as possible
This doesn't even make any sense. People normally criticize us for wanting Ukraine to surrender to end the war -- are you just making this up, or??
Cuba's stated goal is communism. They've started to change a bit in recent years, but until recently that was the official position.
Permanently Deleted
okay, lemmy user CatholicSocialist
Ok weeb, go jerk off to Xi Jinping's wikifeet or whatever it is you do for fun.
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Fucking disgusting link. You liberals are gross (yes, you are the real liberals for supporting China)
You now:
You liberals are gross
You literally one comment ago:
go jerk off to Xi Jinping's wikifeet
Shit on balls is a bit grosser than feet.
Speak for yourself pervert
All of gods creatures are beautiful you fake Christian.
Fake Christian and fake socialist tbh
Yeah we're all libs but no where near as
as you are for supporting 
Yeah we’re all libs
Lmao you admit it.
Here's the crazy thing... I can hate America AND China at the same time 😱
Yes we can all do multiple things at the same time, doesn't change the fact that so long as you hate them equally you're playing into the hands of the ruling class
They want you to think China is worse but they'll settle for you thinking
isn't the most evil coutry in the worldEven if I still believed any of the propaganda about China it still wouldn't make any sense to focus on them when all of the worst people in the world are running this country and they're my immediate problem
Maybe you'll end up right but at least when China rules the world the food will be better and seeing the empire crumble will be worth whatever the cost is
"false hope"
CatholicSocialist
I think someone's projecting a little lmao, sorry your religion is primarily known for protecting pedophiles, but you don't need to assume everyone else is having a crisis of faith.
What do you propose people do?
Also,
catholicWhat do you propose people do?
Not support a capitalist hellscape.
Is my religion a joke to you?
As an ex-catholic, yes lmao
I prefer the term recovering catholic
Maybe
cw
rape
less kids and I'd like your religion more.
You don't think atheists and every other religion rapes kids?
You are part of a cabal of molestation. Your leaders conspire to molest children and cover it up. The church is rotten to the core. Every priest and bishop either is or is covering for a molester.
Nah it's just that your fake blasphemy against gnosis rapes kids more than other world religions lol
I would never bow to the Bishop of Rome
Yes your religion is a joke. All religions are of course but yours is especially silly and also has a pedophile problem.
Go back to r/atheism. Why did you liberals federate with Lemmy in the first place?
Catholicsm is no more pedophilic than any other religion.
I can't, sorry, reddit banned me for being a little too aggressively anti Zionist
If it was up to me we wouldn't have federated, nothing you people have to post is very interesting
Sorry buddy I know it hurts your feelings but it's at least a little more pedophilic than some religions
I can't, sorry, reddit banned me for being a little too aggressively anti Zionist
I thought your name was ironic, lmao.
Didn't the Rerum Novarum strictly reject socialism? Affirms the right to private property? Or was it the one time the pope was fallible?
I don't know. Jesus did not.
Its one of the foundational documents of modern Catholicism how could you not have read the part where the pope says worker unions ok, but socialism is bad?
Look, they are what I, when I was a Catholic, would describe as a 'bad Catholic'. Many liberal Catholics operate the same way, with a perverse attachment to the Church as it could be instead of seeing the Church as it has been and continues to be, that isn't to say that good things don't come out of the Church (hospitals, nursing homes, monasteries, etc), just that they are better the further they are away from the central worship and money-making operation. When I was a rigorous Catholic (10-15) I was a very conservative Catholic because I read the doctrine, listened to the scripture, and understood the scripture and how it ought to be interpreted.
If was during my confirmation when I was continuing my theological study, when I stumbled upon Aquinas, Hume, Kant, Nietzsche and other metaphysical philosophers and it struck me that not only was my understanding of Catholicism incredibly shallow, but it confirmed my increasing suspicion that everyone else's understanding of Catholicism was also, if not more, shallow. Upon reading, especially people like Hume and Kant, it became clear that not only did I not actually have very rigorous grounds for what I believed, but that in order to be a 'good Catholic' you had to be a 'bad person' and that 'bad Catholics' were constantly having to deal with this juxtaposition, fighting against the structure of a Church that wants their money, but doesn't actually want them or their ideas.
It wasn't that they were 'bad Catholics' it's that they were 'good people' attempting to be 'Catholics'. That's when I rejected the entire thing and tried to start from scratch to the best of my abilities. It's been a long road and I still don't know where I will end up ideologically, but I do know that I will not make the mistake of seeing 'what could be' for 'what is'.
This kinda falls in line with my Irish Irish friend (to distinguish from Irish immigrants from the 19th and 20th centuries). She's agnostic now, but has family who are a lot more devout. The Rerum Novarum is sometimes used by anticommunists saying socialism is incompatible with Catholicism. And that line of argument works for some people. The pope is infallible and Leo XIII said socialism bad. Stepping away from the church was one of the factors that led to her being radicalised.
The Pope is infallible, even when he contradicts himself, or someone comes in later and contradicts him. I think if I was still Catholic I would likely be one of those cringe Catholics that only attends Latin mass. Although, to be fair, my personal idea for a reformed Church is to lean away from social conservativism and instead way into the occult, obscure and mystical elements of Catholicism, particularly the crazy ass medieval festivals, with a rigorous return to Latin. Rationalism is not and never has been a good fit for the Church, blame that I lay squarely at the feet of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
I've met one person even sort of like you before, and I want to say that I appreciate your existence. There is such an amazing line of theological stuff that's out there and most people (including me) don't engage with. Please keep up your great work 👍.
Thanks. I definitely try to inspect everything, for what little good it brings to me. There is just so much shit and only a short life-time to learn it.
capitalist hellscape
Give me a single piece of evidence backing this claim up.
No, but almost all of the openly catholic folks I've met suck. Also, the eastern orthodox church got it right so idk.
Give me a single piece of evidence backing this claim up.
Literally just linking a google search as a citation oh my god. That's even worse than linking wikipedia
I'm giving you the oportunity to pick an actual source. Pick one of those search results you like and send it to me.
You haven't connected chinese capitalism to being a capitalist hellscape. America during the 1970s and 80s wasn't as bad as it is now (in certain ways, mainly poverty) because there was more money around. Regardless of the socialist character or lack there of of china, the country's government has intentionally set the country up for vast investments. China is essentially the only country in the far east that has a declining poverty rate.
The article provided agrees with all of my above points.
Is my religion a joke to you?
yes
I don't think the world's largest pedophile ring is any laughing matter
This is religious discrimination, is that not against your rules? I'll be reporting either way
The fact that the Vatican operates as a massive, international pedo ring is an empirical fact. I don't give a shit about the theology one way or another.
no, I'm pretty sure it's against our rules not to call a provable pedophile ring for what it is. that's not really much to do with religion, though.
Nah, its not an echo chamber. Im not a big fan of china but its obvious you're talking out of your ass based on habit and conditioning
oh no, we're fully aware of how dire things are globally. but that doesn't mean we have to swallow propaganda whole and go "thank you, may I have another?" it's a deeply servile attitude.
China is a capitalist country. I don't disagree with that. However, if you get your head out of your ass and actually read some theory, you will realize that the form of capitalism that is being practiced in China is actually a left-liberal classical capitalism, fundementally grounded in principles of industrial growth discussed by Adam Smith, David Ricardo and Karl Marx, that, if it overtakes the U.S. as global hegemon, actually has the potential to transition into a socialist society.
Their poverty reduction, infrastructure building, and general wheeling and dealing with underdeveloped countries is laudable and far outstrips the history and ability of the West, and while I don't really like their foreign policy stances, particularly on MLM issues, refusing to actually analyze what is going on there and what has the potential to go on there is a sure sign of the typical, unread, left-com martyrdom complex where you have the audacity to criticize the projects of others without ever having done anything particularly productive or revolutionary yourself.
actually has the potential to transition into a socialist society
LMFAO I've read plenty of Marx and it clearly does not.
Their poverty reduction, infrastructure building
Maybe tinges of social democracy in a fast-growing economy accompanied by mass human rights abuse.
dealing with underdeveloped countries
Ah yes because Xi is doing it out of the goodness of his heart, totally not getting anything out of it like imperialist influence in Africa and interest money.
Marx was incorrect about alot of socio-political things, in particular his specific model of social revolution. You clearly believe this otherwise you wouldn't still be a Catholic.
However his historical model for capitalist industrial development is sound, and eventually the internal contradictions will have to be solved, one way or another. My hope that it isn't a violent struggle that overthrows the CPC, but it very well may be. It's either that, aggressive internal reform (which wouldn't be the first time that occured) or they will take a neo-liberal turn themselves and then I will re-evaluate my position, which will also be reflected in the mass degradation of living standards if they take that route. And who knows, that may happen. But it hasn't yet.
'Mass human rights abuses'. Ah yes, the country with a 90% approval rating even by Western studies is the one participating in mass human rights abuses. How is Zenz doing these days?
Who the fuck ever said it was out of the goodness of his heart? It's for multi-polarity, resource access and ally building. Again, as critical as I am in that regard, it is the diplomatic move to make if you are in China's global position. They don't need to shake the boat, because ultimately time is on their side. They are very cynical in that regard.
Lol 'imperialist influence in Africa', where are the military bases? Where is the limited occupations, training camps, invasions and coups? Heaven forbid the Chinese build the things that they are paid to build. No please, keep spouting off IMF talking points.
imperialist influence in Africa and interest money.
Consider:
https://fair.org/home/why-comparing-chinese-africa-investment-to-western-colonialism-is-no-joke/
Ok, they're nicer than the west, that doesn't mean it's not still imperialism. Most of the time they don't forgive debt and when they do it's corrupt; they're trying to win them over to become satellite states one day.
Most of the time they don't forgive debt and when they do it's corrupt;
Almost like some kind of unfalsifiable orthodoxy is being used to make the judgement here
in this thread
So if you make your friend pay you back the $10 you lent them you're imperialist, ok.
It's more like your billionaire friends gives you a $100k loan to buy a house and expects you to pay them back with interest.
That's literally America lmao
From that news.com australian article I posted: "But the concept of a Chinese “debt trap” has also been criticised, with a study in 2020 finding China had restructured or refinanced about $21 billion of debt in Africa between 2000 and 2019. The study also noted there was no evidence of “asset seizures”and that Chinese lenders had not used courts to enforce payments, or applied penalty interest rates to distressed borrowers. [emphasis mine]"
They've had the opportunity to really milk these countries if they wanted, and actively chosen not to.
EDIT: Here's the study being referenced in that paragraph i quoted: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3745021
Most of the time they don't forgive debt and when they do it's corrupt [emphasis mine]; they're trying to win them over to become satellite states one day.
What do you mean when you say their debt forgiveness is "corrupt"? And why do you believe that they want to win them over as "satellite states" and not as regular-old geopolitical allies?
Ok, they're nicer than the west, that doesn't mean it's not still imperialism
What about it makes it imperialism to you? Do you see any difference at all between lending money for development projects and imperialism? How does forgiving loans facilitate economic domination of these places?
From that news.com australian article I posted: "But the concept of a Chinese “debt trap” has also been criticised, with a study in 2020 finding China had restructured or refinanced about $21 billion of debt in Africa between 2000 and 2019. The study also noted there was no evidence of “asset seizures”and that Chinese lenders had not used courts to enforce payments, or applied penalty interest rates to distressed borrowers." For a go at economic imperialism, they don't seem keen on putting the choke-hold on.
mass human rights abuses
your source chain:
mainstream articles, citing -> the victims of communism fund, citing -> adrien zens, citing -> "an anonymous source told me bro"
go actually follow up on this shit you read
7% of 10-15 year olds are child laborers in China but keep pretending shit isn't happening. "If a western website says it is must be false!"
Source?
The 7% statistic seems credible to me at a glance, though somewhat dated. The data are from Peking University's 2010 China Family Panel Study, not RFA or Zenz pulling numbers out of their ass
https://docs.iza.org/dp9976.pdf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Family_Panel_Studies
I’ll wager this statistic is declining over time, but I don’t know. I’m about to go to bed or I would do a deeper literature search.
For me the more important question is: Why? Why is China like this? Why did China liberalize under Deng? What is the worldwide political and economic context? Is child labor in China possibly a difficult problem to address, when we look at the whole situation? What measures have been taken so far? I hope you are at least wondering.
I’m no expert, but I’ll point out two things:
1 ) Not long ago, China was still dirt poor and fighting tooth and nail to industrialize and modernize as fast as possible. China’s economic power today is a fairly recent development.
2 ) China liberalized in order to survive in a hostile global economy. Liberalizing brought in a huge influx of foreign investment and industry expertise. The alternative was to be politically and economically strangled like most other socialist states have been. There’s only so much you can do with a self-contained economy in a hostile world.
