Why do I lack the ability to trust white people who claim to be progressive or leftist?

You absolutely should not trust white people based off of the words they say.

My friend you fucking know why, it's the same reason why I don't trust self-proclaimed "progressive/leftist whites" until they prove themselves also, and it's also the reason why I tend to go out of my way to prove myself early on too. Like, I have touched grass and I have been to predominantly white activist spaces, I have seen white bullshit and I have done white bullshit. I have learned through all practical experience not to trust whites for even a second, especially not those who refers to whites as a """we""" or in any way identify with whiteness, as if "white" is an actual meaningful group identity rather than a fucking Indiana Jones sandbag of a """culture""" whose continued existence is inherently destructive and antithetical to decolonization, anti-imperialism, Black liberation, and socialism.
You do not have to ask "why" you lack an ability to trust whites, you are in fact very wise to do so. It is not something you should feel guilty about, as if you're being racist by "judging books by their covers", it is in fact whites who are racist and it is on whites to prove themselves to you.

When you grow up white in America, there’s so much that you have to deprogram from your brain before you can even move left. I had some really shitty views as a kid and I know I held to those just because it was coconut tree in which I fell out of. And beyond that, so much of society is geared towards privileging whiteness, you have to actively work to break out of it.
That said, I am grateful for people in my life who have called me out of stuff and have helped me be better. This is a reminder to all the white folks, if you get called out on something… apologize, understand - actually understand - where you went wrong, and be better.

I’m a white communist and I sometimes feel like a vampire who’s trying not to be a vampire. White people in the west have so much to lose (at least in the short term, until the destruction of whiteness) from communism that it’s not unusual at all to distrust us. I don’t trust us either.
2020 is on my mind all the time actually, and I think a lot about how many people were marching at one point, and then how most of us stopped marching. Like…the problems are still there. They’re even worse than they were in 2020. Marching didn’t solve them, marching by itself is not going to solve them, but a lot of people were marching for a left cause (even if a lot of it was fucking lib shit), and then we stopped.

From experience, it feels to me that white people can never fully understand what racism means. I mean, they understand it on a cognitive and intellectual level, but perhaps never on an experiential level.
It’s gotten to a point where I don’t even blame my white friends for not grasping certain issues anymore. It’s something that is very hard to internalize if you have never experienced it. As long as they promise to do their part of anti-imperialism from within the imperial core, I’m fine with that.
- At a certain point you just have to believe what people of color say about their own lives and support them
- I went to an all black school as a young kid (around 7) and it was the first time I ever got beat up and it was because I was white. I also got in a few fights after that being the only "cracker" in school and was called such. I didn't instigate anything I was a quiet kid and felt intimidated daily just being in school. I remember I would stay in class between classes and wait until the last minute and then run to my next class so I wouldn't get hit in the halls. We moved within a year after my mom was hit with a stray bullet from a shooting in the neighborhood.
  I wouldn't say what I experienced was full racism because an important element of racism is institutional (social and political, not just individual) and the political institutions weren't against me but I experienced an element of it in the closed social situation I was in during school hours for what its worth. I think there are other white people in America who have experiences like mine but it's certainly not common. I do think I understand racism in a fuller way than just conceptually.
  
  I'm sorry this happened to you growing up. I think that experiemce did give you an understanding of racism in that, you were taught younger than most white kids that there are races in this country and that has a meaning. That said, many white people told me similar stories of being bullied by the Black kids at an all Black school(some use it as ammo that reversed racism exist). I believe for a lot of white kids it's the first, and possible only, time they're explicitly racialized, but it's regular school bullying for being noticeably different hence the context doesn't leave the school setting.

because white people can't be trusted, simple as
- I shouldn't say more because this is what got my last account banned
  
  Go onnnnn

When a person of color, especially if they're black like me, affirms their support for causes such as queer liberation, feminism, animal rights, or socialism, I immediately feel that I can believe, with minimal doubt, that they're truly convicted and principled in what they're advocating for. However, when a white person claims to support leftism, until my skepticism is proven wrong, I immediately assume they're a dishonest and performative libshit.
It depends, I do not trust any person of any race immediately when it comes to topics like LGBT rights or feminism for example. There are many homophobic and sexist people of all races. There are many performative people of all races. People are people, after all. However, when it does come to issues around race, I agree with you. I think most white people simply do not understand the concept of structural racial discrimination as they have no experience with being on the side that gets discriminated against because of their skin colour and/or ethnic group. Obviously there are exceptions, but as a whole Eurocentric thought, which includes white supremacy, has been dominant throughout the past couple of centuries.
With regards to socialism, I find that in South Africa black people in general tend to have a much better understanding of what socialism is. I would say that is because part of the struggle against apartheid was based on socialism, and people from other racial groups, in general, have been influenced heavily by red scare propaganda or a comparador mindset.
- I absolutely agree with that take. I was raised in a devout Catholic, Afro-Caribbean immigrant family who I had to completely cut ties with due to their very staunch opposition to LGBT people literally just existing.
  One thing I will say, though, is that within the queer community, black queer people certainly tend to treat me better than white queer people do, and that's for sure. I've noticed that white queer people seem to be more likely to have an exclusionary mindset, in having a higher chance of being one of those "LGB drop the T" people but also being racist towards queer people of color. It's horrifying how their lack of intersectionality can really lead to this kind of behavior.
  
  I've noticed that white queer people seem to be more likely to have an exclusionary mindset ... but also being racist towards queer people of color
  Unfortunately this definitely exists, many white gays that want nothing to do with LGBT+ people of other races. I've seen it in South Africa. It's very sad. As the LGBT+ community, we're already a minority and further division over racist nonsense is just going to make us weaker and easier to oppress.

You pay attention.
Don't trust our Yakubian tricknology
- I wish yakub jokes weren't made against the rules, nothing makes me laugh more consistently
  on the way down

i can't really blame you at all. most progressive white people i've met start saying wild shit once they think you trust them enough.

It's okay I don't trust myself either.

Cause you have object permanence?

All I know is when over half of these white "progressives" I met throughout my life in the west openly mock east and southeast asians and at the same time telling us that we are somehow the most racist group while also saying that they love and support the minorities to other non asian minorities, all that trust was immediately gone. Malcolm X's comment on liberals pretty much confirmed to me with regards to my experiences with them.
- East Asians seem to be left out of most “racial Justice” discussions in Western progressive circles. It’s always purely “black and brown” while leaving out various Asian groups that fit neither category.
  
  It's quite astounding how they pick and choose being progressive as if they're picking out ice cream flavours instead of doing the normal thing of supporting everyone equally.

With all the white people self flagellating in this thread it does make everyone seem less sincere which validates op question lmao. This thread is just a dumpster fire, people arguing if interracial marriage or having Black friends makes you racist or not, are asians poc?

Because that's how it keeps going. I have tried time and time again to ignore the little danger signs from White people and kept getting burned by some, even by self-professed leftists. Not by all, of course, but by enough to be wary. It's unpleasant; this hypervigilance around White people is a real burden and I wish it hadn't been forcibly inflicted on me, but that's what living in a White Supremacist society does.
I find it helpful to differentiate between "White" and "white" people.
Capital-W "White" means the person exhibits a lot of the toxic settler-colonial, imperialist, and casually racist behaviors that Amerikkkan society perpetuates.
Lower-case w "white" means the person has skin tones that make them look like the Capital W's but they don't do that shit. They're actively antiracist, they're vigilant and purge any trace of white supremacy from themself, they're learning, and they support people of color in our fight against white supremacist fascism.
It's not about skin color, and it's not even essential to who they are -- White people who rehabilitate themselves can become white people, that is, people whose skin is light but aren't being toxic or shitty in any way.
A pretty basic litmus test I've found is checking how they feel about American Imperialism. If I say, "Joe Biden belongs in prison for what he did to Iraq" and they agree, then they probably understand on a visceral level that brown people are people. If they argue, that tells me they don't actually value our lives -- because it is fundamentally impossible to care about nonWhite lives and also be ok with any of these genocidal fucks.
- Capital Riot

It is reasonable to have these suspicions. In my everyday life I feel infuriated hearing the racist shit the white people I work with may bring up around me, since they assume that I'll agree with them since I'm white too. Most of the shit they talk about is their callous obsession with the oppressed migrants at the southern border. If that's what those people do openly and outwardly express, I can imagine just as well that there are white leftists who have not examined and gotten rid of all their prejudices. It's reasonable to think they have just used their knowledge of left norms and attitudes to hide it way better than the chuds I see irl. I'd say your vigilance is warranted.
I hate how the continued existence of these racial hierarchies poison the minds of so many white people, teaching them a multitude of ways to be alienated from their fellow human beings. The task of the left in dismantling these oppressive hierarchies is a Herculean one, requiring massive socioeconomic changes and I at times despair when thinking of its chances of success in the heart of empire during such a turbulent time in human history.

Yeah as a white person, don't believe anything I say. Please judge me and other white "leftists" by our actions. Look at what we actually do and care about, only then can you tell if we're communists or socialists or anarchists, or if we are just using the words and performing. I know real and fake white leftists - the good ones do lots of great organizing and the bad ones talk a lot and end up derailing plans.

This is how I feel about French people, unless they've explicitly clarified that they've read works by anti-colonial writers and have read the history of their evil empire and recognize the current imperialism of it today, they're a Nazi in my eyes.

Lots of normal comments, very conducive to building a mass movement
- Keeping wreckers out is super important. To that end a pattern here is being discussed
  
  We're not talking about keeping wreckers out, we're at "I don't trust a white person unless they have a biracial kid, and even then maybe not." There has never been a sizable leftist movement in the U.S. with that kind of thinking. I don't see any realistic path to one with that approach, either. I don't know of any AES state (Cuba is probably the most relevant example to the U.S.) that has addressed racism and discrimination in a similar fashion.
  I don't know how we can read Gerald Horne and have 100 threads about how racial categories were invented to keep poor people at each other's throats and then just do exactly that. I don't know how we can nod along to Engles on pre-patriarchical family structures or Graeber on pre-capitalist economies then think whatever we're doing in this thread is revolutionary.

I'm white and I still give a massive eyebrow raise to any other white person who claims to be leftist if I don't really feel like I know them
- I feel like the most half-assed ones just say they're progressive, seems like a bigger red flag especially because even the best case isn't great
  
  True, true. Personally, I've simply had too many former friends who were significantly less radical than what I thought they were when it really started getting down to it and it's starting to make me a lot more cautious/suspicious around other people with left leaning politics

ngl i feel very similar about cis men. is this intersectionality?
- Honestly wouldn't exclude trans men from that. I see that kind of verbage that specifically singles out cis men a lot in trans, lesbian and feminist spaces, i've talked and thought like that in the past as well and i've found that practically all transmascs that i know personally or that i at least regularly interact with online find it extremely othering and belittling when women pretend that trans dudes are somehow the better men, and it is a gender essentialist notion at its core. I mean, they openly call it transphobic, i'm just being diplomatic here.
  Yes, transmascs have lived experience with misogyny in almost all cases, they can fall back on that experience while they settle into living in a masculine gender role fulltime, but being the better men everybody believes them to be by default takes work on their part. Many put in that work, but it's a pain in the ass. It isn't realistic to believe they will automatically keep in mind what it's like growing up as somebody who's viewed as a girl in a patriarchal society. And when i hear from the shit early-transition or poorly passing transmascs have to put up with, how often their masculinity is called into doubt, how hard they have to prove themselves, i absolutely find they do go through the exact kind of shit that produces fragile masculinity, toxic masculinity, or just tacit support of misogynist power structures in cis men. There's an entire propaganda apparatus out there specifically targetting men that struggle to look like
  
  And unfortunately, there's transmascs out there that are just awful, shitty people. Trans men are men. Criticizing men should always include them, and they need to do self crit like every other dude.
  
  And unfortunately, there’s transmascs out there that are just awful, shitty people.
  Back before I cut off dating white men, I ended up with my heart dicked around by a transmasc the exact same way a cis white man had. Third time's the no-go, white men as partners got deaded regardless of what's in their pants. There's fundamentally no difference between the cognitive of a transmasc and that of a cismasc; especially when it's under Anglo socialization.
  
  Trans men are men. Criticizing men should always include them
  Trans-inclusive radical misandry is the giga-based take I needed to hear of today. Thanks!
  
  ehhhh, its more that theyre trans than it is that theyre men, i feel like im way more comfortable around trans people in general. i always felt like this sort of argument was a reach
  to surmise: I am a trans supremacist
- We're not all Hasan :(

Don't worry it's a good thing lol means you've been paying attention to how they will always choose their whiteness over anything else, unless proven otherwise.
In any case I feel more comfortable around other Black people in general 🤷🏿‍♂️

I dead ass peace’d out from activism because of this shit.
For some reason, a lot of people in the “activist community” are incredibly snotty and mean, too.

pattern recognition probably

I am white (disclaimer)
because most white leftists/progressives, in my experience, have not killed the plantation overseer in their brain. colonialism is the mind-killer, it's the little-death. understanding it and learning to hate it, to see it seep into everything in society is the difference, I think, between the progressive that wants to strengthen the settler-colony by keeping it's racist systems intact and making small changes, and the leftist who seeks to destroy the settler-colony and uproot it
that's a hard thing to want to destroy something that benefited your ancestors and yourself to this very day- to want to end something that your told is your culture or your identity, maybe there's a bit of capitalist realism in there; you can't imagine anything else... but if there is evil in the world that would be it, the project of "whiteness".
in the last few years I've come to challenge that internally, I guess. Why would I want to self-identify with a project that I think should be destroyed? I have a hard time trusting other white people in organizing if they haven't also come to that conclusion, or are at least working towards it, doesn't matter if they are a ML or a succdem
- Correct. Plantation owner will not let them see that the west is evil. Imperialism is abstract without this. They still think of their country, western country, Japan as «good». The western countries and the western system will always be defended. The views change when it affected them. They will not destroy it.
  I think also that they like to believe something to be seen. It is an imitation of the liberal politician. Views do not have meaning because the system does not change.
  I do not know any white people, but this is what I have seen on the internet.

It's capitalism we're all sellouts. White people just have an easier time to be sellouts so you notice it more

Nah, that's fair. Not all white leftists are grifters or liberals, but it's good practice to assume a baseline of distrust until proven otherwise. Source: I'm white.

Easy, don’t trust anyone unless they call themselves a communist explicitly. “Progressive” and “leftist” are perverted terms in (assuming your location) Amerika. Oh also if they use MSE u might be able to let your guard down too. Fact of the matter is that most ppl don’t really have a coherent ideology cuz why would they?
- Yes let us force everyone to identify as a communist, no one has the right to self determination towards political identity or belief! All must conform to the hexbear standard of nonconformity.
  
  I mean yeah kinda. Like Joe Biden calls himself progressive, do you feel that’s a useful term at that point? Calling yourself a communist explicitly is the only thing that can’t really be co-opted by the libs, mainly because they’re terrified of being called communists.

I had a big long thing on how POC Jim Clyburn DSA DNC loyalists are the worst and held back progress. But as.
I am afraid to critize POC here for many ignoring the warnings of the White Moderate so I'll just say I'm skeptical of everyone and and trust is earned.

I don't trust what people say or what labels they apply. Many people don't understand what words mean, or worse they are intentionally deceitful. I instead watch their actions and form my own opinions.

uhh because you shouldn't trust crackers? doyyy

- Assume all whites are racist until proven otherwise.
  No no no... They're not what I call necessarily racist but rather super-structurally privileged
- Exactly this... because very often I don't realize that something banal to me is actually a privilege i enjoy.
  Please don't take it against us, we need more education! Some of us listen :)

I mean It makes tons of fucking sense lol
I don't feel offended that I have to be so explicit that I fight against all forms of oppression and especially racism
People of color generally have no margin for error with these things, because someone could say the exact same shit I do and then support Biden's border policy. I don't see myself as a "good white person" because I recognize that they don't really exist in our everyday lives. I defer my judgement to people with different perspectives because I know I will hurt people otherwise.
Maybe you wouldn't have as bad of an issue if every white person acted similarly, but for a lot of people I feel like those attitudes never go away, so it feels more like the preparation for the start of progress rather than an actual step forward.
I apologize if I'm overstepping or offering my opinion when it is undesired.

I grew up in an area that was mostly black and hispanic.
I'm at the point where I hate other white people and I'm in a contradictory position of hating white people but also I definitely grew up white. I hate whiteness but not myself.
Like I don't expect to be trusted because I see it, I understand that reaction, I don't trust white people either but the alternative is being by yourself all the time which I don't think is good either and itself kind of white.
- Thats a pretty uncharitable conclusion but I guess I wasn't specific enough in what I wrote. It's either I get better at writing, I stop posting at 7am in the morning (no) or accept someone is always going to pick up on something you didn't mean in a post like this.
  I have friends who are all over the spectrum but sometimes its hard to make new friends. And sometimes friends phase out of your life through no ones fault, leaving you with less friends, maybe no friends. That being said I don't have many friends, maybe like six or seven people I actively fuck with and my partners not white and I don't count them in the friend total. I only see one of them right now regularly just because that's life, all my friends live far now.
  There are a lot of non white people who arent interested in being your friend because youre white and I'm not even upset about it beyond the selfish "me want more friends" aspect.

all i know is I love this discourse from the same crowd that is all "race essentialism in dungeons and dragons is fascist, you can be a good goblin, frieren is a fascist show because literal demons are shown as evil"

I work security in a casino. White people are the sketchiest MF's there. I ID check them 5x more often than people of color.

I feel like this is just how it goes as a symptom of the inescapable perpetuation of oppressive ideology within our society.
I only ever really feel safe around poc, socialist, queer non-men. I feel a natural kindred and love for everybody and especially the people of these categories but I also tend to notice when somebody is for instance a queer poc non man that is not a socialist and also a socialist poc who is not a queer or non man etc.
It's the sad reality of the nature of ideology within a capitalist society that every single person will internalize the hegemonic discourses, and as we all know oppressed people will oftentimes even internalize the discourses about themselves.
It's not an unwarranted assumption either as experience may prove, but we should and (clearly you do) still struggle to find unity with all who can be united!
If it was easy to overcome the hegemony of a society we wouldn't need to be revolutionaries in the first place, and none of us are free from brain worms. Freedom is a constant struggle etc

My general rule is if I don’t feel like I could hand them a gun if something popped off then the question really answers itself.

Your experiences and opinions are completely justified. I'm white, and white people have a shit ton of unlearning to do by default, as others have mentioned. I'd like to believe that a lot of white leftists genuinely support and believe in progressive, socialist, or communist beliefs/movements, but it takes a lot of work to shift from always viewing everything from a white lens.
I'll admit that I was a bit of a shithead until about 7 years ago when I got introduced to new ideas and began to truly listen to other people's experiences. When you're growing up in a primarily white suburban bubble, that kind of curbs social development if there isn't a lot of exposure to other peoples' and cultures experiences.
Granted, it is a very common phenomenon that white leftists put on the air of revolutionary thought & rhetoric, but they're still more white than leftist. A lot of these folks never grow beyond just saying the right things, and the mask can slip off and they'll show their ass. That does make it difficult to sus out whether a white person is genuine or not, and I've run into it plenty of times myself.

I don't think it's so weird or unusual to be at least a bit distrustful of the people that benefit the most from a country built off racism and colonialism. Fwiw I'm white, so I don't think it's my place to say more than that, but I have similar feelings to cishet allies who have shown their ass over the years. Of course it's not 1:1, but I feel like you can only be let down so many times before there's an asterisk next to ally* that doesn't go away for a while.

When I first met my housemate she called herself a communist and has been doing everything to prove that she is just an awful radlib since then

- Compared to libshits who say stuff like "I'm a socialist!" when they actually mean they want Bernie Sanders type social democracy, it does open the door a little, but I know that they could still be very much prone to hard-to-excuse shortcomings. There are also people who identify with labels like "Marxist", "anarchist", or "communist" without a lot of conviction, believe it or not. They might bring it up if they are asked about it, but they'll never mention it in their life beyond that point, at least not enough to really understand why their whiteness could make them unaware of the holes they may have in how they view the matters of things like oppression and racial activism.

optimal strategy

I don't know how else to say this but if this is real you sound like such a weird person, do you actually get anything done in the organization where you practice this or do you only organize (and talk) with people who don't pass as white?
- ^ Reminder that crackers are really easy to break
  
  I'm honestly curious how this type of mindset actually works in practice, it's hard to see how it can be productive in a context where people of color are not a majority and you need to have people on your side so I was hoping you'd enlighten me, but if this is just internet stuff then whatever.
- They mentioned still talking to white people just with caution.
  
  Well that's good, so is caution when interacting with self-avowed "leftists"

Idk I try not to view people so suspiciously unless they've given me reason to. It's worked out alright so far.
- unless they've given me reason to
  Being white. Being white is a reason. Thanks!
  
  I don't judge people based on things they can't change

That’s how I feel with self-proclaimed leftists in NATO countries. It’s almost always a radlib who wants to be politically daring. Online they’re mostly cool though. Most of the saner Marxist-Leninists from those countries are mostly found online.

That's fair, talk is cheap

The only white people i trust are David Gilbert, Judy Clark, and the United Freedom Front people.
I’ve also met plenty of opportunistic and full of shit non-white activists. Just FYI. don’t get conned.
But your instincts are correct. Most white people are not to be trusted to varying degrees.

- Crackeritis
- desperate to avoid dying while still white
  try to cure TWPS with face paint
  condition becomes much more terminal very rapidly
- the caucacity

Because you damn well should distrust fucking crackers

I've congregated with white self proclaimed leftist/socialists who are aware of their "privilege" but still have weird views about "bad" neighbors that borderlines into fear. How white people talk about crime or "bad" areas is my litmus test.

Honestly this but cis people. Honestly this but trans/nb people that can't easily hide it. I don't trust anyone fully unless they have no choice in the matter but to fight back or die. I bet most of the people here would sit back as Trans people got exterminated if it came to it. Would I fight and die for a minority I'm not a part of? I would like to think so, but when the time to die actually comes that's gonna be fuckin' scary and I bet a lot of us won't pass that test, so POC not fully trusting white people like me makes a lot of sense even if it feels bad.

I know this is you venting, but it's because they're white, and in this racist settler colonial society, whiteness always comes first regardless of their professed ideology or whether they belong in any other marginalized community. A white fascist cishet man and a white socialist trans woman are just two white people when push comes to shove. I suspect you found this out the hard way.
I only trust white people who either:
Have biracial kids with a POC partner (although they're plenty of white fetishists and some biracial pairings like white dudes with Asian chicks are so filled with fetishists that I no longer find this reliable)
Exclusively hang out with POC as the token whitey
If a white person does both, then there's a good chance their anti-racist views are genuine.