A bit late

People's safety is more important than people's feelings.
- Indeed. It strikes me as pointlessly gendered. All people, safety is more important than feelings.
  
  The whole thing was meant to be rage bait.
  
  ~~you know what else is pointlessly gendered? the patriarchy~~
  feminist messaging has to be gendered because the patriarchy is a gender issue.
  that said, feminism is for everybody. liberating women from oppressive structures by nature does the same for men.
  
  If this weren't gendered I'm not sure I would connect that this was posted as result of people's reaction to the bears vs men thing.
- That gives me feelings of "All lives matter" which minimized the issues of black people. Can you explain why this is different?
  
  Except one has built in meaning and the other is a simple meme made by one person with an oversimplified idea used likely to stir up people considering all the discussions happening about bears or whatever.
  
  BLM, no sarcasm.
  
  It's not, this tread is filled with Incels.
- this statement is funny to me, because linguistically, safety is a relatively "felt" concept. We "feel" exposed in a massive open field, and we "feel" safe inside of a building, because we are no longer exposed in a massive wide open field.
  In some aspects, physical safety is a thing, but given the context of this thread here, i think it's probably appropriate to say that it's actually the feeling of safety here, that matters more than anything. And as a result, this makes the statement a non starter.
  Because to some degree, that feeling of safety, is based on well... Feelings, and if feelings are somehow less important than the safety that those feelings are capable of deriving, than how are you supposed to experience safety?
- Are you really all lives mattering this post rn? God damn dude. I hope every person in your life belittles every problem you personally have by telling you that tons of people have that problem.
  
  BLM, no sarcasm.
- all lives matter amirite /s
  
  BLM, no sarcasm.
- And all lives matter, right? How else can we commandeer this conversation?
  
  BLM, no sarcasm.
- dsfgasfsaf
- Physical safety or psychological safety?

~~I have some extra emotional capacity today so~~ (see edit*) I'll post some wrong think: but can we stop antagonizing populations that feel disenfranchised by society and therefor giving the truly evil fucks out there an easy population to brainwash and feed extra scummy ideologies to?
Young nerdy men who feel excluded from society that dont have any strong female figures in their life are barraged by a constant stream of messaging that could easily be interpreted as "(white) men are evil and the source of all problems with society"
By constantly antagonizing them for not being able to navigate the political nuance of those messages, we give an incredibly easy pathway to the more toxic ideologies that the Tates of the world will pull them into to profit off of them, because they are the only figures who will give them praise and a sense of belonging.
Edit: Its a new day now, and I no longer have the energy. If you want to vent, understanding that venting in this manner will bring about little to no positive change, you do you, I will no longer be responding
- yeah this pretty much.
  Polarized speech does nothing for anybody. If woman are talking about this bear thing to make a point, i feel like we would be better off actually making sure that people understood that it was about making a point, rather than a literal fucking interpretation of the problem
  but no, funny internet points are more important, capitalism ruins everything it fucking touches.
  
  These kinds of things are great for letting off steam with friends, but absolutely TERRIBLE at getting a point across to people who dont already know said point
  
  But many do just that, then you focus on the ones that don't, every cycle. Over and over. You choose what to focus on. Not we as a society, literally you. You choose to engage with that negative part of it and continue to. Nobody is forcing you
- I wanted to post something like this but could not write it well. Thanks for posting it.
  
  Yeah, thats why I posted this. I'm having a good day today, and so I was able to find the words that others who've been affected by the bear meme struggled to find the words to. If I get some flak for it, I have the emotional space to explain my reasoning
- Don't forget the other side, I've seen some of the discussions around this by women turn really TERFy. Both sides of this debate are gateways to the Alt right.
  
  Tbh the TERF stuff isnt surprising since a lot of these memes have just a hint of Misandry to them, and when it comes to TERFs, they dont see Trans Women as women, and see them as men, so its moreso their ideas on men that are guiding their ideology, than it is about women
- can we stop antagonizing populations that feel disenfranchised by society and therefor giving the truly evil fucks out there an easy population to brainwash and feed extra scummy ideologies to?
  Young nerdy men who feel excluded from society that dont have any strong female figures in their life are barraged by a constant stream of messaging that could easily be interpreted as “(white) men are evil and the source of all problems with society”
  I think it's a two-pronged problem.
  Young men are encouraged to be aggressive, thin-skinned, and superficial. They're sold this idea of sex as a reward for climbing to the top of some nebulously defined social hierarchy rather than an expression of intimacy with a romantic partner.
  Meanwhile, young women are victims of the Madonna/Whore complex, simultaneously expected to be sexual and virginal, model-esque and down-to-earth, your plaything and your mom. They're this thing men are expected to fight over, but also personally responsible for the drama created by this social expectation.
  And so much of this engineered conflict revolves around selling you something. Gym memberships or diet supplements or fashion accessories or self-help classes or luxury status symbols are all supposed to be a thing we can buy into in order to climb the ladder to an ideal romantic life. All to commodify the idea of love.
  By constantly antagonizing them for not being able to navigate the political nuance of those messages, we give an incredibly easy pathway to the more toxic ideologies that the Tates of the world will pull them into to profit off of them
  Guys like Andrew Tate are ultimately just bullies. And bullying is a tool that one class of people use to force the others to conform and submit. So much of this boils down to Tate inducting new members of his cult of personality by sending older members out to jump them in.
  The only real remedy is to shut these guys down. Stand together. Stick up for your friends and neighbors in the face of fascist bullying. Push back.
- Also known as: can we please stop pushing people into evil echo chambers by "moderating" them through auto ban because opinion we don't like? Its not only men vs women, it applies to anything slightly divisive.
  We wouldn't need the super thick skin that is needed now if we hadn't banned all the people back in the day for merely disagreeing. They went to more evil places and now, consequently, are more evil. We are kinda reaping what we sowed
- This is so extremely well put.
  You do help by expressing things so succinctly
- That's the thing about memes. They're not really a rational form of discussing a topic, and tend to exploit emotions to boost their spread. But it seems to be more or less the only form of discussing things nowadays. The result is that as a society we no longer solve anything, and only work together to make things worse now.
- good comment regarding the ongoing presentation of this meme. i encourage folks who read this to make posts that welcome young men and encourage them to understand the nuance, rather than judge them a priori for not already getting it.
  that said it’s important to note that the origin of this meme was i believe just a ~~anonymous~~ poll where women expressed their lived experience and wasn’t meant to be antagonistic at all. bad men were the ones that took offense to what these women felt and made the meme what it is.
  not saying you don’t know any of this just feel it’s worth being said :) thank you for your nuanced and leveled criticism of the rhetorical value of the trend.
- This right here is the reason I still bother to engage people on this topic. The women who honestly believe a bear is less threatening than a random man are a lost cause imo, so my goal is to help men find supportive people and spaces that aren't dangerous idiots like Tate.
  You can be a man without being forced to exist in the manufactured redpill/male feminist dichotomy.
  
  I am a man and I am affected 0% by this meme. This meme was a chance to display some empathy and understand why it might be that the bear analogy strikes a chord with many women.
  When I go to the grocery store, do I have to think about being snatched? My privilege affords me the convenience of not worrying about that. Do I need to worry about being sexually assaulted walking home? Statistically, probably not. There are a whole host of problems and horrific fates that befall women disproportionately, and very often at the hands of men.
  Why would a woman feel safer with a bear?
  The 750,000 black bears of North America kill less than one person per year on the average, while men ages 18-24 are 167 times more likely to kill someone than a black bear.
  Most attacks by black bears are defensive reactions to a person who is too close, which is an easy situation to avoid. Injuries from these defensive reactions are usually minor.
  https://bear.org/bear-facts/how-dangerous-are-black-bears
  Since 1784 there have been 82 fatal human/bear conflicts by wild brown bears in North America. Yellowstone National Park has seen a mere 8 since being established in 1872, which is only one more than the number of people who have died from a falling tree.
  https://bearvault.com/bear-attack-statistics/
  Seems to me that even I would be safer with a bear than a man. Makes you think, doesn't it?
- L M A O white nerdy young men are not the perfect angels you think, I have multiple friends who were sexually assaulted by such people
- This is not antagonizing men. This is important data for men. Do you want to get laid? Understand where women are coming from. Don't do spooky shit on dates.
  Listen, I understand. It's bad news, but it is what it is. It's reality. It's like women saying if you never take a shower or bath in your entire life, a relationship is out of the question.
  
  The fact that you are trying to pass this off as a way to get laid is honestly disgusting
- Man are not evil and I don't think anyone is making that statement here, but the problem is that we can't know which men are evil. Of course we should avoid antagonizing them, since, like you said, it often drives young lonely men towards the manosphere, but also men should try actually listening to why most women pick the bear.
  
  I mean yeah, that was my point. Currently though our messaging is insanely antagonistic and there are a LOT of men without women in their lives who can explain this to them. People dont listen to those antagonizing them, the throw their shields/walls up, and seek those who are friendlier to them, which, in this case would be the manpsphere, posts like this only preach to the choir, and push away the men who need to know why women would choose the bear the most.
  
  it often drives young lonely men towards the manosphere, but also men should try actually listening to why most women pick the bear.
  ok, and as evidenced by the previous thread, there was a lot of nothing being explained actively happening.
  Reiterating the metaphorical reasoning as to why someone would do this doesn't explain the underlying reason why people are using a metaphorical device in the first place.
  don't tell people that you would rather be with a bear, tell people that you would rather be with a bear, because the entire point of the statement is that it's literally fucking insane. The problem here was the second someone goes "isn't this insane?" instead of people responding with "yes, that's the point, it's supposed to be!" people respond with "and you're part of the problem" yknow, because surely that wouldn't cause problems.
  It's not that people are saying something, or aren't saying something, it's that people are trying to make a point using a metaphorical device that they never drop, it's like irony poisoning, except it's just not irony.
  TL;DR It's hard to listen to someones reasoning when they never fucking explain it. Granted it did get better eventually, but jesus fucking christ did it take a while.
  
  I used to actively avoid women out of fear of making them uncomfortable (still do occasionally, when I have a particularly shitty day), I mean like full on 0 eye contact, lotsa distance and god forbid speaking. Being tolled I'm too fucking stupid to understand female issues and tolled that I have it so easy because I can be a literal pig without getting judged did a number on my brain. I mean I get it, women have it much harder, but being completely pushed aside and forced to associate with literal trash, all my efforts made worthless just because women have to put in much more effort, while I only chose to do a bit more. It hurts. When a girl is freaked out and starts running, because I'm taking a similar route to her's (because I just happened to live in the same direction), I understand her reaction, but it doesn't change the fact that it makes me wish I didn't exist, if my fucking existence is a problem in it self. It's shit like this that makes me wish I was at least trans or something, not born a fucking bogeyman that hurts people by breathing the same air as them.
  
  but the problem is that we can’t know which men are evil.
  It's very much possible with these things called emotional intelligence and empathy. Used in combination they allow you to walk in another's shoes for just a split second and see where their mind is.

The thing is, I've seen statements like this before. Except when I heard it, it was being used to justify ignoring women's experiences and feelings in regard to things like sexual harassment and feeling unsafe, since that's "just a feeling" as well. It wasn't okay then, and it's not okay the other way around. The truth is that feelings do matter, on both sides. Everyone should feel safe and welcome in their surroundings. And how much so that is, is reflected in how those people feel.
The outcome of men feeling being respected and women feeling safe are not mutually exclusive. The sad part is that someone who is reading this here is far more likely to be an ally than a foe, yet the people who need to hear the intended message the most will most likely never hear it nor be bothered by it. There's a stick being wedged here that is only meant to divide, and oh my god is it working.
The original post about bears has completely lost all meaning and any semblance of discussion is lost because the metaphor is inflammatory by design - sometimes that's a good thing, to highlight through absurdity. But metaphors are fragile - if it's very likely to be misunderstood or offensive, the message is lost in emotion. Personally I think this metaphor is just highly ineffective at getting the message across, as it has driven people who would stand by the original message to the other side due to the many uncharitable interpretations it presents. And among the crowd of reasonable people are those who confirm those interpretations and muddy the water to make women seem like misandrists, and men like sexual assault deniers. This meme is simply terrible and perhaps we can move on to a better version of it that actually gets the message across well, instead of getting people at each other's throat.
- Honestly I am so goddamn tired of this shit, everytime something like the bear question comes up it blatantly tilted in one side or the others favor and dissent is crushed in both sets of spaces and no one learns anything.
- Best take in this thread by a long shot. I'd like to add that there's nothing wrong with a little thought experiment to illicit a point. But the internet has become such an inhospitable place to any kind of discussion requiring nuance and patience.
- You're right, feelings do matter, and this post did not dispute that. It's just that safety matters more.
  It saddens me that the default interpretation of this is accusatory and requiring of defense. Not to personally blame you, this is very common and clearly a systemic reaction, but I don't know enough psychology/politics/sociology to understand why, just enough to know it's bad.
  
  It saddens me that the default interpretation of this is accusatory
  It’s saying men are inherently unsafe to be around. How is that not accusatory?
  This isn’t about women’s safety versus men’s feelings, it’s about women’s feelings (of safety) versus men’s feelings (of respect).
- Clearly the meme is highly effective.
  It was highly contagious, that is, it spread widely. But so was the whole "would you still love me if I were a worm" thing and it was "effective" for the same reason: Gals thought "Oh I want a 'yes' to that answer that'd be so emotionally satisfying" and guys thought "WTF why would I want a worm if there's something more behind it why can't my SO speak plain English": It spread by exploiting the emotional kick gals get out of tripping over guys for having a particular default interpretation. No, it is not a "wrong" interpretation to think of the question as "rather with a bear or a man like me". If you don't want men to interpret the question like that then pose it differently. Simple as that. But then it wouldn't be as inflammatory and with that not as contagious.
  Each and every time one of these things comes around one of two things happens for the average guy: We a) fall right into a trap and then get accused of being insensitive or b) we recognise the trap, lift our hands, walk back slowly, then faster, then even faster, until making a go at the 10km parcour world record. Because yes that kind of shit is a giant red flag.
  It's like those people who are proud of being "brutally honest" but in reality what they care about is not the truth, but the brutality, just from the other side of the gender distribution.
- Yes, feelings matter. Beautifully put.
  But nobody is purposefully "wedging a stick" between allies and enemies. No secret society is plotting to prevent you from sending any message of safety. The metaphor is not designed, or created for a specific purpose. You have to realise how crazy and for real dangerous this way of agumenting is.
  You aim for a good purpose, then use basically the debate version of biological weapons of mass destruction to make your point.
  Just for any small argument about a small thing between sexes, like always it's fun for people to discuss, and some get mad, but
  For you to use the narrative of psy ops, learned no doubt subconsciously, to speak like there is a secret cabal that want you to be fearful, we must unite against some kind of expression just because they are coming for you.. No
  If anyone takes it too far it's talk like that, and you unironically talk about how reasonable people are hard to come by
  Gee
  Wonder why that is brother
  
  But nobody is purposefully “wedging a stick” between allies and enemies.
  The purpose of a system is what it does.

Downvoted not because it isn't true, but because they aren't automatically mutually exclusive and because it is an unnecessary jab at half of the human species. Why are we paying attention to divisive bullshit instead of focusing on things that actually have the potential to help?
- What will help?
- "I realized men are evil, masculinity is toxic, these are statements of truth and the only ones who deny this shit are cis men themselves." - CheesyCheese1 This thread
  ☝️ Top comment when i got here. This issue brings out as many misandrists as it does misogynists.
  Even my gf who wasn't aware of this meme picked the bear vs a random man when i asked her, so obviously there is a problem. But in reality i don't give a shit if some rando woman would prefer a bear over me in the woods, whatever makes her feel safer i guess. I do care about being tarred with the rape brush though, and this topic is being used to attack all men rather than just the problem ones.
  
  I support sexual assualt because I think associating all men with sexual assault is divisive? Eat shit and die.
- Because the solution to women getting assaulted is to make men think about their actions. The post wasn't anymore divisive than the average black twitter meme. It was a simple tongue in cheek piece about how women have the impossible task of figuring out if a man is going to be their life partner or their rapist & murderer.
  
  "Hey, would you rather be alone with a bear or a man?"
  "A bear. And you should think about what you've done." "... Huh? "
  
  to make men think about their actions
  Do you not understand that, as a very straight man, I've never once even thought about hurting a woman?
  It's absolutely divisive. Stop.
  
  Imo this doesn't impact the men who would do such a thing in the slightest. You're just making the ones who have empathy feel bad, those who would rape are just getting their egos stoked by this fad: "Look at me, I'm more dangerous than a bear! That means I'm badass"

However, women’s feelings does not equal women’s safety.
- but safety is to some degree also derived from feelings, because human psychology for some reason.
  There is no winning here, i think.
  
  The perception of safety, maybe. But not actual safety. It's an important distinction.
- This.

I'm a woman (a trans one if that matters to you) and have experienced sexual assault and domestic violence from both men and women.
I know the point that people are trying to make with the whole bear thing.
But I think the friction comes from women talk about this as a theoretical to make a point, where men are thinking more literally.
And I do belive that no one in there right mind, if actually given this option in real life, would pick a bear (unless maybe it was definitely one of the more harmless species).
Each and every one of us, even those of us that have survived SA, have had countless uneventful interactions with men you don't know. Even when it's just one on one. And its mostly normal biases that makes us remember the shitty ones more. And something a lot of people forget is that the vast majority of SA victims already know their assailant, so the idea of a rando assaulting you is even less likely. So yes I would much rather be in the woods with a man, than a wild fucking animal. And if you're a reasonable person, then you would too.
- Honestly I think it depends more on the guy than the bear. Any time you're alone in the woods (at least in the US) it's safe to assume you're with a bear, that's where they live. Most bears keep to themselves though.
  People tend to be less low-key, and less predictable. To me it seems more likely that a random guy could follow you around, take your stuff, or generally make life more difficult. There's also a higher chance for a guy to assist you and make things easier, but I can understand how the potential risk could outweigh the potential benefits.
  
  Nono you're not allowed to judge the man individually. You're required to judge before you see both the man and bear so that we get a properly over-essentialised judgement how else are we going to propagate in- / out-group divisions.
- it makes me happy that this is near the top of this thread, but this comment is also only 15 minutes old, so i'm not sure how far down the pipeline of this post, it'll track.
- (This is me being glib) It depends on what kind of bear we're talking about. Blackbear be big noisy and confusing, grizzly play dead, big hairy gay guy like best case scenario.
- As a trans woman who has also been sexually assaulted, it has more to do for me with what danger is more real to me. I've experienced zero bear attacks. Nobody I know has experienced a bear attack. Why would I fear one? Of course, consciously yeah, I know a bear is dangerous, but I have no real world experience to back that assumption up.
  Men though? Yeah, I've been sexually assaulted by men. I've been physically assaulted by men. I've had family and friends who've been physically and sexually assaulted by men. That danger is real to me. I know that if a man I don't know is nearby me he could do those things to me, and I have the real world experience to prove that assumption correct (the assumption that they could, not the assumption that they would.)
  Therefore, of course I'm more scared of the man than the bear. And of course I'd choose the bear over the man. I don't care if it's the wrong choice, I'll take my chances to not have to relive that trauma, even if it means risking my life. Not like I'll have time to regret that decision if the bear decides to kill me. Probably. And most women I know when asked expressed the same sentiment in different words. We're more scared of men than bears, but that doesn't mean we literally think men are more dangerous than bears.
  Is it the logical choice to pick the bear? Probably not, but humans are not logical creatures. I'd rather make the wrong choice than the scary choice.
  
  I’d rather make the wrong choice than the scary choice.
  Unrelated to the topic, but this mindset is exactly why far-right movements are getting so strong right now.
  
  I've never been shot or held at gunpoint, but I have have the shit kicked out of me. But still if given the option to face a person with a gun and a person with the bare hands. I don't think I'm going to pick the the guy with a gun.
- Most bears would just walk away from you when you make a loud noise. Men would approach you. So even I as a man, would pick a bear

How many female teachers have been caught fucking their barely pubescent students this year alone so far?
It isn't a men-women problem. People just suck.
- Yes, but divided people == profit?
  
  True.
- dsfgasfsaf
  
  Yeah I kind of feel where the both of you are coming from, but statistically it is a men-women issue across the world.
- Do we need to start throwing out the stats for how many rapist are men compared to women?
  Spoiler alert, most rapist are men and it's not even close.
  
  Highly unreported numbers when it comes to female rapists, so your numbers might be skewed
  
  Do we need to start throwing out the stats for how many rapist are men compared to women?
  Sure, just as long as you define rape in such a way that female-on-male rape actually counts as rape, which it doesn't in the vast majority of "rape statistics" that get put out. Quote http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers :
  And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011). In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
  
  Yeah, those are very helpful, minority victims don't deserve help as we all know.
- Statistically the disparity is significant.
  
  It's a drastic disparity. Men do 80%+ of violent crime, 95% of murders, and 95% of sexual violence, with the caveat that we know, for sure, is severely under reported.
- Would you rather be in the wood with a bear rather than a woman because you fear she could rape you? No? Then what the fuck are you even talking about?
- I don't disagree that both men and women do heinous things, but women ~~don't~~ almost never physically attack or kill a man when he shuns her advances, but men absolutely attack women every day for shunning a man's advances, and sometimes women get straight up murdered for it.
  #NotAllMen, but enough men that many women choose the bear.
  
  This isn't the 1950s, Scooter. Women aren't viewed as fragile incapable little things anymore because they never really were.
  
  men absolutely attack women every day for shunning a man’s advances
  This is a completely weightless statement, considering that it's true if as few as 365 men a year do this, out of ~4,000,000,000. In other words, 0.000009125%.
  Pretty low bar for shitting on half the world, no?

I'm a woman and the same way that women feel about men in this whole meme thing, is the exact same way I feel about women...
I don't trust women within a hairs inch of my life and I would rather be with a bear than a Woman but I bet you I'll get super downvoted for this opinion.
- My wife shares the same opinion. It’s not something she can discuss in her social circles, but she feels like she’s been backstabbed in more awful ways by her fellow women.
  When she gets in that pattern, I try to remind her that people tend to suck and you have to be choosy regardless of gender.
  
  I hear you, but as a dude, I feel like there's significantly more risk of bodily harm from men than than women. This doesn't mean women are Nice, just less likely to try to rape or murder someone in an alley :(
- I feel like with men it’s usually more physical and with women it’s more social/mental. And physical is way easier to document and make stats out of
  
  What are we comparing here? Cyberbullying to r*pe? Social exclusion to being thrown down the stairs? Not sure if you're attempting to draw equivalences or minimize physical harm but that is how I read this
- Have you had some negative experiences that led to this?
- I've never been downvoted anywhere for expressing that opinion. Lemmy especially there's a huge disparity where saying you'd rather be with a bear than a man is unacceptable, but saying you'd rather be with a bear than a woman? A-okay. Source? I've said both. Only one was I not attacked for. Guess which?
  Seriously, I've expressed my trauma regarding men countless times and every time been attacked for it. I've expressed my trauma at the hands of women and not a single downvote or attack or disparaging remark any time. Lemmy has a very clear bias.
  I wouldn't have a single problem with men getting upset about this bear thing if they got equally upset when somebody says something similar or worse about women, but they don't.
  
  It's because nobody wants to talk about trauma at the hands of women.. everybody goes extremely, extremely quiet when the topic of the capable violence of women enters the room. I have a personal feeling, as a woman, that if we talk about all of the tools and tricks and things that women do to manipulate and abuse, less women will get away with it, and women don't want that, so they stay silent in order to enable basically a fucking gang, operating with impunity, in a way as a woman, I kind of feel held hostage at the sleepover if you know what I mean..
- dsfgasfsaf
  
  Nope I definitely trust men more than I trust women. I don't know what part of what I said sounds like that when I said I don't trust women, not people.
- With a bear, really ?

You spelled it wrong, the sign should say "Safety is more important than feelings"
- This is specifically about the bear meme though. Way too many men feel personally attacked by women not feeling safe around men they don't know. Instead of thinking about why that is the men cry and attack the women.
- and what do we do if somehow safety becomes intertwined into feelings?
  What happens then?
  
  You become trauma bonded
- elaborate?
  
  Everyone's safety is more important than anyone's feelings.
- Why? The sign seems fine to me.
  
  Because thereal's version is welcoming and non discriminatory, and the meme is antagonistic by design

This whole thing is bait.
Anyone engaging on any side of the debate are fools. Any topic antagonizing half the population will somehow stir up some noise.
It's like saying all women are bad at sport because they don't train hard enough. It's ignorant and serves only the purpose of creating a divide in the population.
Stop engaging in the divide.
- I like this logical approach.
  Also: eat the rich.

I see OP noticed how much traction and drama this post stirred up last week so they decided to try it for themselves.

My edge-case where I run into something semi-related to this issue is when I go on my daily walks and get caught walking behind women. I’m a fast walker, it pains me to have to slow down for people and I don’t like having to walk awkwardly around other people walking too slow (especially if they’re just barely slow but not too slow). I realize that the Flash is trapped in a living hell walking behind all these goddamn slow walkers.
I dislike walking behind women especially, nothing that’s their fault, they’re just living life, but because then I get extra self-conscious, like, “Oh geez, what if they think I’m following them or that I’m trying took at their butt or what if I’m making them uncomfortable.” It’s about the implication. Walking slowly isn’t an option because it extends the whole thing out and makes it worse, so then I have to re-route my whole walking routine on the off-chance my very existence might make somebody else uncomfortable.
I’ve tried saying things to them to try to put them at ease like, “I wasn’t planning on raping you,” or “Hey, it’s ok, I’m not a rapist,” but nothing seems to work, if anything, it makes them more uncomfortable. I honestly don’t know what women want from men.
- Lol you had me for a moment and then you got to the end. Good trolling
- Is your name Michael Jr?
- i prefer screaming from a significant distance behind them while rapidly approaching to show that i have something to inform them about.
- That's why I got a shirt that says "^^^not ^^^a RAPIST". Then when they look back they can tell.
  It's just common sense in this day and age.
- Uh, maybe say something that doesn't include the word "rape" in a sentence?
  "Just passing by, in a hurry... sorry to bother you" has always worked just fine for me.
  Hey just so you know, I'm totally not going to rape you 😏 Jesus man, that'd creep me out, too.
  
  Got wooshed
- Uh, you could literally just go around them and not say anything, or say excuse me or something. Happens all the time, and presumably these walks aren't at 3am, so most people wouldn't even question it. Saying, "I'm not a rapist," is such a weird choice that I'd immediately be on edge.
  
  woosh
- Each of those women whose method of self defense is to be tense and walk faster has made the conscious decision not to carry a weapon for her own safety “because she shouldn’t have to”.
  Instead of them taking practical steps, they are asking you to reroute around them. To literally bend your day, every day, around their needs so that they don’t have to take any practical steps for their own safety.
  You are not forcing those feelings on them. They are taking them on as a form of protest against the nature of reality itself. Women refusing to carry weapons and make themselves safe is like a prisoner on hunger strike against their conditions.
  We all dream of a society where women don’t have to be afraid. But if you, a 100% harmless man simply walking to work and giving zero signals of violence, are enough to make them “have to be afraid”, can we really achieve a society where women are unafraid?
  It’s a question worth asking. How much effort are you willing to put in for someone who will not help herself?
  As soon as I encountered street violence for the first time, I developed the fear. I then solved the fear by starting to carry a weapon. I don’t require all men bigger than me (who can hurt me just like they can hurt a woman, and who are statistically far more likely to to hurt me than they are to hurt a woman) to alter their routes so they never walk behind me. I don’t cower in fear at home either. I didn’t have either of those options in the situation where I developed the fear — living on the streets of Boston. Instead, I got a weapon. It’s my companion. It’s my tool for being safe. It’s my self-regulated solution to the problem of danger.
  Women refuse this solution. I have little sympathy for that attitude. Ever since I developed the fear myself, and moved to the obvious solution, I regard women’s fear of me as their own problem. I have a life to live here. I’m not going to add fifteen minutes of walking to my day just so they can feel safer for two minutes without having to lift a finger for it.
  
  I can smell this comment

That's quite the universal statement. I think first and foremost, men need to learn that they might not be part of the problem, but that there are many very problematic ones among us.
The feeling of general suspicion is what we need to tackle. If you don't grasp the problems and their magnitude, you will naturally take offense in being suspected.
We need to take this feeling and turn it into anger towards the disgraceful people that are the reason for the suspicion.
So on the contrary, I think men's feelings actually matter a lot, if you want to reach a world free of misogyny and violence against women.
- Sometimes things aren’t your fault but are your problem. And men making excuses like “just locker room talk” and not confronting other men in their lives who do or say toxic things or espouse ideas or personalities that generally make women uncomfortable are our problems, whether or not they are our fault.
  
  I wish I could do this at work. The most inappropriate things I hear in a regular basis are from my own leadership.
  
  I mean, it depends. I am not my own gender police, I don't see my life with my peers as "shaping the culture of manhood" because having gender in common is basically irrelevant and there is absolute no sense of belonging for me into "manhood" as a gender. We are not talking about contributing to shape the culture of your organization, or club or something, where there are (or should be) some form of shared values.
  In fact, I find this whole idea between silly and sexist, where by sexist I mean rigid attributes applied based on gender.
  The way I see it is that I - as a man - have absolutely nothing to do to help with the overall problem and the only way that I can help improve is by not being part of it (in this case, not assault, rape, stalk, harass etc.). That's pretty much the end of it.
  
  I have no heard a man express what you would call a toxic opinion in like twenty years. And yet women are still just as afraid. Crime rates are at an all-time low, yet women are more afraid than ever.
  Whether it’s my problem is my decision. Primarily, it is women’s problem. And they have practical steps they can take to fix that problem. I refuse to make someone else’s problem my own problem, if that other person is ignoring steps they themselves can take to fix it.
  I’m all for helping out, but only people who have done the first step themselves.
  Women’s general attitude toward this is “It’s my problem but it’s your responsibility to solve it” and I say fuck that. I have my own problems to solve. My life is, in fact, absolutely full of problems that take all my energy to solve.
- This, except that shouldn't be anger, really.
  Anger is a feeling that leads to alienation, and an alienated beast is the most dangerous one.
  We should be on a watch for potentially dangerous behaviors and offer help so that people gently unlearn their ways.
  That's not to say people who have already committed some form of abuse shouldn't be punished, but that we should fight for those who can become dangers and support those who recognize their mistakes and genuinely strive to do better.
- The feeling of general suspicion is what we need to tackle.
  I agree. This general suspicion is not good. As Bruce Lee says, “Do not be tense, but ready”.
  I recommend women take concrete steps to protect their own safety, so they don’t have to be constantly on high alert. That’s a terrible way to live.

When people justify racism with statistics: That's stupid and you're a bigot
When people justify sexism with statistics: Only one side's feelings matter! I'm going to post this divisive meme everywhere!1!
Edit Sexists know how to downvote, but not present a logical argument.
- Stay tuned for the next "men suck" cycle: 'toxic masculinity is bad you should express your feelings instead of bottling them', more after the break
  
  This rage bait is so old the Simpsons parodied it:
  "Today's topic..."

I'm doing my part by playing with Arch Linux in my mom's basement instead of going outside. Where women are. And Arch Linux isn't. I use Arch btw.
- Well I'll have you know I do the same but with Fedora Linux (like arch Linux but imo better). I use fedora btw.
  
  I'll have you know my Linux runs on bears. Makes me, and all my many female friends who hang out, more comfortable.
  I don't like much bloat in my Linux though; just the bare necessities.

So if men are statistically safer than bears and women's safety is most important, then you agree "bear" is the incorrect choice?
I'm just trying to figure out all these incoherent memes.
- Do you have those stats? I would love to actually see a comparison, instead of a slap-fight
  
  Very few people someone gets near enough to be grabbed by want to rape them. Nearly every bear someone gets near enough to be grabbed by wants to kill them. A large number of women feel it is better to be killed by a bear than live with their irrational fear that every man they get near shall rape them. The fear not being rational is irrelevant as the fear is based upon a more than likely chance, approx. 25% is reported, that at some point the fear was justified and not irrational. However those numbers are screwy as folks that get raped are more likely to get raped again.
  I'd give percentage chances of each occurring, (the National Park Service estimates the odds of being attacked by a bear are about one in 2.1 million.), but the media seems to only report percentage of gender raped not chance of rape.
  
  You're asking for statistics in bad faith of the argument. Seems like you're the one slap-fighting here - if you wanted to actually engage in logical discourse, you'd have presented statistics yourself, which you have not.
  There's obviously no statistics on the rate of how many bear-human and male-female interactions happen. One rarely happens, the other happens billions of times per day. We can prove that bears are more aggressive and dangerous than humans though.
  In one black bear study 88% of fatal attacks were a result of the bear being the aggressor. Note that black bears are known to be timid of humans, and notoriously not aggressive.
  https://sapl.ucalgary.ca/evds_info/content/black-bears
  https://bear.org/bear-facts/how-dangerous-are-black-bears
  So, statistically even the more timid bear species are wildly more aggressive to humans than humans to bears. Unless you have data that proves that men are more aggressive to women than bears are to humans, this is the closest we get to proving men are statistically safer than bears.
  
  dsfgasfsaf
- dsfgasfsaf
  
  You're just discarding every opinion as "toxic masculinity" which is actually worse than engaging in logical discourse.
  I'll do everything in my power to empower women and make them feel safe. This thought experiment has unfortunately been detrimental and used to attack men.
  "It's not you" - yes, and nothing I said made it about me at all. See how fast you went on the offense on a completely neutral comment? You should listen to your own advice and listen the points being made equally as much as you're lobbying others to do.
  
  I read some of these, more to get insight into how other people think, but often I come to the conclusion that there is very little I can do to help and that people who behave that way aren't people I want to help. My ego is just fine, thanks, but blind hostility isn't something I welcome into my life.
  
  i am not like that
  Congrats, you pass the bare minimum for human decency, dudes. Accept that part and you won't spend time having to 'defend' yourself.
  I'm not like that, so I don't need to worry about it, type of thinking
- Here's the thing...if you get upset that a random woman that you don't know would take the hyperbolic position that they would rather be in the same room as a bear than with you, you're likely the exact type of man that these memes are talking about. They are meant to expose fragile egos that don't understand how intimidating they are to women. They know how dangerous a bear is. They don't know how dangerous you are. That's the point...
  
  Here's the thing...if you get upset that a random woman that you don't know would take the hyperbolic position that they would rather be in the same room as a bear than with you, you're likely the exact type of man that these memes are talking about.
  What the heck? Expressing resentment at the implication that you are more threatening than a bear based solely on gender is evidence that you are, in fact, more threatening than a bear? How does that follow? You don't need to have a fragile ego to recognize the unfairness of it.
  They know how dangerous a bear is.
  If they would rather be alone with a bear than a random stranger of any gender I'm going to say they don't.
  The original post was a bad-faith engagement farm that became much more popular than it ever should have been. It ended up bringing up a bit of good discussion and a lot of insane takes.

Not sure what else this meme is doing other than actively creating a bigger divide between the genders...
- "everything is going according to plan"
- Maybe a divide for you, my SO says she'd pick the bear if it wasn't me. And I don't blame her.
  Instead of arguing the merits of this debate, maybe its worth analyzing your own merits. Men (individually but amongst their peers) should be ashamed that women typically seem to want to pick a bear over themselves, instead of falling further into the rut that pushes everyone - not just women - away from their social circles and friend.
  Someone tells you they'd rather be getting mauled by a bear? Take the hint. The divide exists within your head, make friends, be kind, and you'll find happiness
  Edited for individuals to contextualize on their peers instead of generically
  Edit edit, I mean go ahead, be reactionary
  
  Men should be ashamed that women typically seem to want to pick a bear over themselves
  Shame is an individual thing. Men, plural, is a whole bunch of people. Why should I be ashamed for the actions of people that aren't me?
  ...and just to be clear here: I'm not even arguing that we shouldn't battle this one out between the genders. But collective punishment is against the Geneva convention and I really don't like to stay quiet when people commit war crimes.
  
  Excuse me?!
  The fuck should I be ashamed for?
  Why am I responsible for the actions of other men?
  Go have your fucking guilt trip if you want to but don't include me.

Feel however you want, but don't drag me into the what other people have done. I don't deserve the prejudice, and I'd rather just not interact with you.
- Who's dragging you into stuff? No one has said that all men are worse than bears.
  
  You are, right now. This post was, as well as every other post. I'm not just going to sit here and bite my tongue. The entire thing was designed as an attack to get a rise out of people, and here it is. Thanks to whoever made this post.
  What kind of person would I be if I weren't willing to defend myself?

It's this sexist statement still being made? Cool, cool, cool... I mean it's not actually, but here we are with this crap still being said.
- Plus like a lot of semi recent sexist analogies it's a rephrasing of an older racist one with the same logic but proponents are like "that's different for reasons", 'rather a black man or a dangerous animal' is pretty common in racist circles, just like the 'you have a bowl of M&Ms, 1/10 are poison. That's what it's like to deal with men' analogy from a few years back grew from the 'you have a package of Skittles. 1/10 are poison. That's what it's like to deal with Muslims' analogy
  
  Stop noticing things.

It's nice to change the subjects of racist phrases to get a free dunk on a lot of people that are cool to hate now.

- From your last paragraph, that's what I was discussing with my spouse. She has been harassed/assaulted. All the women she knows have been as well. Hell my mom was as well. She was telling me about how men started to look at her when she was 12. I cannot put myself in her shoes, but because it's so wide spread it's a no brainer to me that women will choose the bear, and I don't blame them. I hate that there is a hesitation, and I hate that you, and all the women I know went through shit like that.
- Im a little shocked at the general sentiment in this thread, I'm not a woman but most of my friends are afab and just hearing stories about how men will act normal until they're in an isolated situation like the scenario describes makes it a no-brainer why so many people pick bear
- There are some issues & experiences that women go through that men will just simply never "get", and that's fine. But invalidating the answers & experiences from women is why I believe there are no longer many women participating in conversations on Lemmy anymore.
  I mean.. looking at all this, why would they want to?
  Is it controversial to say that I'd rather converse with a bear? Or do you suppose folks get upset about it?
  Maybe, just maybe, folks who do not understand it should listen to what women have to say about it? But many are thinking about it completely removed from the contextual experiences of women. It's.. awful.
  
  I realized this a long time ago when I made a simple complaint that I thought women's issues were downplayed a lot here, and in response I was downvoted, ridiculed, people demanded sources for my claims then claimed my sources were invalid for whatever reason they could pull out of their ass, and one person even, and trigger warning on this, told me I should die giving birth to a rapists baby.
  I've even picked up a downvote stalker during the course of this whole bear thing. Same time every day somebody goes through and downvotes every single new thing on my profile.
  So yeah, Lemmy's never been a great place for women. I only continue to participate because I'm disabled and have so few connections to the outside world that I'll take anything now.
- And bears will most likely leave you alone if you leave them alone.
- If you don’t get why a lot of women pick the bear, shut the fuck up and listen to why.
  ok so im spitballing a little bit here, since this is a cultural divide. Perhaps instead of trying to "empathize, or sympathize" with women, it would be more beneficial for both parties to be capable of meeting on a "level playing field", where experience isn't a factor, because the fundamental problem with experience is that nobody cares until they have it themselves. You ever watch a video of someone who is a master at their craft doing something and going "wow, that must be hard" but then have that subconscious thought of "i could totally do this if i wanted to" which you probably could, but you're almost certainly going to underestimate the amount of effort required. As is a pretty typical for a human.
  you have to remember that you exist inside a small bubble, specifically a small bubble made of three inch thick plate steel, like it's the pressure hull of a submarine. You need to come outside of that bubble in order to be able to interact with others. Which in this case, probably means explicitly identifying that the very real fear that you have is completely insane/unfounded, and shouldn't exist. And then it would probably be beneficial to cover why. Because the why is the underlying problem. Nobody cares about the problem at hand, they only care about the solution that fixes it.
  The only thing that normal people with an outside perspective, and the inability to have the experiences listed (i.e. men in this case) are going to see is (to use an example from my life) is that i don't like interacting with people, as I'm dysfunctional (for no particular reason, i just don't like people) and as a result, when i have to interact with people, it's often very weird and uncomfortable. But instead of someone else seeing me as a person who doesn't like social norms and rules and just doesn't follow them, they see someone who is quite literally a dysfunctional human being, who cannot do the one job that they are supposed to be able to do.
  The difference here is that i am acutely aware of this fact, and often like to abuse it, because it makes other people uncomfortable, and i think being uncomfortable is a healthy thing. Social rules? Yeah turns out you can just not follow them, nobody cares. You wash your hair regularly? Stop doing it, see how many people actually care, which if they do care, you don't have to care about them either. As long as you aren't being an actual asshole people simply do not have the time of day to think about it. Most people don't even understand this, because they don't even understand the concept of social rules. Social rules are how you interact, not a way to interact, for most people.
  if you don't understand the spiel i've given just prior, it's the same exact reason people don't understand you. And if you understand it, than good on you, it's the reason you think that this is going to understood by everybody. It's important to remember that everybody is not capable of understanding everything, nor are they capable of experiencing everything. It's really difficult to communicate across that gap effectively, but once you can, it works really fucking well. (the underlying problem here is the same reason that racism continued to exist for so long, and does to this day in smaller capacity. It's the same reason people were scared about gay marriage, and it's the same reason people are scared of trans people now. These people don't know how to understand these things, so they just don't. That's where bigotry comes from.)
  Anyway, i only left this comment after seeing how much of an apparent cultural misunderstanding there seems to be around this. I know i certainly didn't understand it initially. I could see the reasoning behind it, but that doesn't mean i understood it properly, to me it was just people yelling about nonsensical shit in lieu of making a good point, and it seems like that was almost what was happening, but that's besides the point now. I see no other reason for this to be so hotly debated otherwise.
- Suicidal person never eaten alive by a bear.
  
  You read the comment but were not listening. Try again. Disapointing.
- Stop antagonizing all men. There is a low probability that random men will sa you, there is very high probability that bear will eat you alive while you experience both pain and violence role-playing a KFC meal
  
  It is fucking atrocious that you attacked a person sharing their experiences with “stop antagonizing all men.”
  Right there she was expressing how every time she speaks up she gets immediately shut down, and there you were to do it again. This is me calling you out for it. Shame.

So there mere presence of a man implies a lack of safety? It may be your feelings but it is also major misandry.
- Lived experience shapes our reality. It's an absurdist analogy that paints the picture of women feeling unsafe around men they don't know due to their lived experience. It's not misandry, it's caution, anxiety, fear, and uncertainty. The outrage at such meme is pretty much indicative of the issue at hand. Men tend not to feel unsafe around women they don't know whereas the flipped scenario is the opposite. That says something about society, not women.
  
  I don’t think it’s lived experience for many. Much of it is fear impressed by others. And I’ve certainly felt fear at being alone with the wrong woman, or a child. One false accusation and my life is over. I actively avoid being alone with women and children. But that doesn’t mean I’m picking bears over people.
- but it is also major misandry.
  STILL DON'T GET IT HUH?
  Let's reduce it down to the simplest way it can be put: how many bears rape women?
  Get it now?
  Misogynists can't accept it I guess.
  
  How many men maul women to death?
  https://abcnews.go.com/US/woman-hospitalized-after-mother-bear-attack-butler-county/story?id=107861488
  https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bear-b-c-squamish-attack-1.7201905
  https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/07/us/grizzly-bear-attack-yellowstone-idaho-killed/index.html
  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57763443#
  Implying all men are rapists is misandry, period.
  
  Women are rapists as well.

Here's my hot take on all this:
Fellas, it's not that your feelings don't matter, everyone's feelings matter, it's that your feelings don't matter more than the safety of others.
You're getting mad at the wrong shit here. You're mad at the women for not wanting to be stuck in a forest with a random dude, when in all actual fact, that decision was borne from a plethora of experience with random dudes, most of that experience being negative.
Almost all of that negativity is because there's to fucking many creepy ass dudes making us all look bad. To be blunt, I have high hopes, and expectations from my fellow man; especially when it comes to respecting women. Yes, there's a nontrivial number of crazy bitches out there, in the same breath, there's a lot of crazy dudes too. They're making us all look bad. Be mad at them.
The women are only making the best decision for their own health and safety, based on their experience. Be the change you want to see in the world, my brothers. Be that change.
- Well said.
- Can we fix this comment for the whole lemmy instance to read?

Men's feelings is what makes some of them unsafe to begin with.
We can't address safety concerns of women without addressing the thinking of men, and trying to shut men up a little harder is not gonna help.

- Women are announcing that they much rather spend their time in the company of men from the homosexual "bear" subculture. Apparently because they are better at camping than supposed "normal" men.

This topic keeps coming up because people keep talking past each other. There is a real, measured, evidence backed problem. The victims are saying “I feel this way, and it causes me to behave this way” and those who are neither victims nor perpetrators are upset about the way they are choosing to express that in a general sense. Now this meme itself is not more helpful than the bear, it didn’t give any new information. But it’s a good expression of that general frustration when no one listens. At least on Lemmy, there is a certain defensive response rather than an understanding empathetic one on this topic. This meme in particular seems harsh, but it’s driven by decades of talking about this, or not being able to talk about this, because the response is always so negative. Everything from “why did you dress that way” to “you should have know before you married them” to “not only women” (yes but that’s the topic at hand so). I would hope that some can come to understand this sentiment. I hope that this community improves.
.
- If we could just add one more line at the bottom: "but men's feelings ARE important", then I think we'd be on the right path.
  
  Or just replace the whole thing with
  "dont assault anyone.
  physically, mentally or emotionally.
  Man, woman, or in between."

How are so many people angry at a simple fucking hypothetical?
- Telling on themselves
  
  they genuinely don't understand; they think: ah, but the bear is a much more fearsome predator than I am, the woman would choose me any day!
  Nah man, the bear's never, ever, ever going to rape the woman. Woman will roll the dice with their lives, but no one wants to be kidnapped and raped to death - an actual fear women in this day and age have - and the bear will never ever 100% will not rape a woman.
  clear cut logic to me, I don't fault women one bit.
- I don't even get it. Like if I'm hiking in the woods alone, it's because I want to be alone. Please pick the bear, I don't want company.
  At least when I get to the bear, he'll be sated and less likely to eat me.
- Fragile ass masculinity

can we just drop this stupid joke that many missed the point of? its getting real annoying real fast. people suck, get over yourselves.
- it’s definitely not a rhetorically/optically great in-joke for exactly the reasons you state.
  that said i would take the man vs bear meme 1 million times over the KAM jokes we had last decade tho, so it is getting better.

- I don't think that's where we all came out of
- I'm just going to say it. Any arguments of "what about..." Are effectively pointless banter.
  It's not adding anything to the discussion, and bluntly it's actively trying to distract people from the point, and change the discussion into something different.
  Fuck off with that shit.
- This post, and most of the other bear ones, are in normie forums full of people not familiar with feminist discourse. The reason for that? It's funny, cathartic, shocking, and a little inflammatory. And that's fine, it's meant to be. It gives it reach and allows people to learn and others to teach. The problem is that when men do find this to be shocking and inflammatory, they need to channel that emotion somewhere, and antagonistic/angry internet discourse is not the correct way respond to that.
  There was a popular post the other day of "If you don't understand why women pick the bear, you are the bear", that directly antagonises the exact people who need to hear about why women choose the bear, and those people don't need to be antagonised, they need a little empathy and non-confrontational discussion to get there.
  When I talked to them calmly, and acknowledged the way they feel, validated their emotions, then explained the topic to them, every single one I talked to accepted the core point and came out better for it. Take that angry energy, educate, and direct that energy in the right direction.
  It's not that men's feelings should trump women's safety. It's that you need to think about why people are disagreeing so you can effectively talk to them
- yea but like at the same time annoying a bunch of butthurt lonely guys really isnt solving the problem and rather pushes them towards the manosphere which is where the problems start to grow

Yes, this is the correct take.
The bear meme is meant to make men uncomfortable and surprised by how they are seen as a generalization among women. It isn't meant to be anti-men or anything, it's just meant to show the lived experience of women to men in a hypothetical absurdity.
- I get that, and you're right. But a lot of people are taking the meme too far, and taking something that was originally good, and making it it anti-men. Men's feelings actually matter, and we as society need to start actually thinking about them, rather than just telling them to man up all the time.
  I've talked to a whole bunch of anti-bear men, and all of them accept the point when told in an empathetic way that acknowledges their right to feel the way they do. You can take that feeling and channel it as a force for good, rather them antagonising them and pushing them further away
  (Not saying you in particular are doing this)
  Edit: Please respond instead of downvoting. I'm failing to see the problem with identifying that there's a enough antagonistic commenters that maybe it's pushing people in the wrong direction. And we now require an over-correction of empathy to undo that damage.
- The cure to sexism is definitely more sexism.
  
  What part is sexist? There can be no equality if uncomfortable realities are brushed aside, illuminating the very real lived experience that women are constantly wary of the average man allows us to confront said issue. Telling women that they are "wrong" and just need to feel different about the issue just perpetuates this distrust.
  Listen to women.

We should think about the bears safety now that jealous incels will be hunting them down for having better odds of being alone with a woman.
- Incels are getting jealous of the attention these posts are getting even
- Lots of incels are hunters in the first place. You're making a great point. We should really save the Bears from the incels and from women.
  Why won't someone think of Da Bears!

What is this referring to? I think I'm OOTL
- Bear meme

- Who said that?

love how this post is turning this fascinating thought experiment (which a lot of people don't seem to understand very well)
and turning it into correlation, not even causation of correlation, this is literally just taking two random things and smashing them together lmao.
there are so many variables to how this can be interpreted that make this a very difficult to comprehend statement.
- I don't know. Seems kind of straightforward to me. Women's safety is more important than men's feelings. I agree with that statement. Do you not agree with that statement?
  
  based on what though? Womens safety is more important than men feeling that raping women is bad? I think that might not check out.
  Womens safety from being bombed by russia (nuclear warhead btw) while men have feelings about that one argument they had last week?
  I mean, i like reductionism as much as the next guy, but you gotta give me something palatable, not just word salad.
  
  Lemmy is a sausage fest so seeing people big mad about this topic claiming it has a "hint of misandry" is on brand. Fact is men are dangerous and avoiding them seems to be the best option for women the vast majority of the time.
  Everybody knows this. We all know this. The down votes are just "man mad."

So, we should generalize entire groups of people to teach them a lesson. No matter their feelings or the fact that the majority of people in said group are just living their lives. A bunch of bad apples should make and entire group socially responsible.
Got it. 👍
Yes there are too many men who think they live in the 50s and can do whatever they want to woman. If you say ALL men are like that, you're invalidating the effort of most men trying to be better human beings while being assholes.
If you can't understand that. You are not looking to make things better, just to throw hate around.

I think I've seen this sign before.. If I'm not mistaken it's basically in every single strip club.
- It's a hell of a thing to realize the one time women have the rights they should have is when they are expressly considered "the merchandise".

,
- Every single time someone makes a post about feminism, it gets flooded with comments that show why we need feminism.
  
  ,

Shit meme

I'm out of the loop on the bear situation, what happened?
- Something about would you feel safer being stalked by a creepy dude or being stalked by a bear in the woods. Both could equally kill you, just one is more likely than the other to actually kill you.
  
  Close, but it's just "would you rather" with any random man in the woods vs a random bear. No implied creepiness on the man's part. Just who would you feel more safe knowing one of the two is in the woods.

Well, obviously surviving is a bigger deal than one feeling...but, in some cases, having a feeling can lead to surviving something or succumbing to something.

So, people's safety is more important than people's feelings, basically.
- You're being reductionist to the point of losing the actual point but, if we assume you're doing so in good faith, then yes. Without a doubt yes. Given a choice between a person's feelings being hurt and a person getting physically hurt, the latter should win, especially when the only reason those feelings are hurt is because the person refuses to try to understand why or is so fragile they're unable to handle criticism.
  Most men I know aren't made uncomfortable by this and, so far, the only ones who do have their feelings hurt are absolutely the ones women should choose the bear over. Not because they're bad people, but because an important point is being made and instead of trying to understand, they dig their heels in, refuse to understand, and now gripe about being victims because people are talking about things they don't want to think about.
  
  I'm being far more universal than the obsession this narrow cisgender thread promotes. It was an issue with the pandemic. It is an issue with abortion rights. It is an issue with elections. It is an issue with so many things, that you would have to want to be willfully ignorant to focus on any single one. Your problem is humanity and their obsession to sacrifice people's safety for their feelings. People who put their feelings over your safety are the ones who should be avoided. No need to bring pandas into it.
- Especially when alone in the woods. I feel like many people are glossing over this important part of the question.
  It's not just any random guy you meet at starbucks, it's a random guy out in the middle of the woods.
- Nono, only female safety and men feelings! Read the sign! /s

Incels are so butthurt about this one. Grow up

Men's mental health is more important than women's feelings.

- Men's feeling are more important than women's safety and men's feelings are less important than women's safety?
- The reverse of what?
  
  Wrong post, sorry.

I hope this isn't in context of the bear dilemma, because if so then that's a very contradictory statement.
- It's the contradiction that is making the statement.

- I'm sorry, could you elaborate? Do you mean because transgender people are so much more likely to be the victims of violent crimes?
  I believe the reason the sign is highlighting women (all women) as opposed to specifically transgender women or people in general is that so few people are transgender,, that's the Canadian 2022 census because it actually included questions on gender, resulting in 0.33% of the population stating they identify with a gender other than that they were assigned at birth. Whereas women usually make up just over half the population, and have usually been made to feel unsafe by men (for example, 97% of women report being catcalled), without touching the rest of the violence against women, almost all of which is perpetrated by men.
  If I'm off the mark I would love to hear your thoughts.
  
  I think they're trying to argue that transgender women aren't real women and that respecting them and allowing them to use spaces that align with their gender identity is endangering women.
  That's how their comment reads to me, the way they dismissed the meme gives off those vibes.

But what if I'm a big huge baby about it, what then?

All the angry men here complaining about this meme are coping, face it men are seen as evil and dangerous by women, and they are right to see you that way. I was once like the people here talking shit about "misandry" and then my egg cracked and those angry masculine mannerisms melted away after I went on estrogen. It was then that I realized men are evil, masculinity is toxic, these are statements of truth and the only ones who deny this shit are cis men themselves.
- You're correct, but you're every bit as angry as they are, and your comment is so devoid of any respect or empathy for men as fellow human beings that you're only making things worse for everyone.
  You are the ammo that anti-sjw grifters put in their guns.
  Like it or not, men are 50% of the population, and no one is getting anywhere by needlessly antagonising them
  
  Not only are they 50% of the population that's circa 3.8 billion men, the stats are hard to find accurately but less than 1% of them are incarcerated for crime (all crime not just sexual assault) even if you were to drastically enhance that to say 5% (to account for men that have never been caught etc.) that still leaves 95% decent men in the world. The men Vs bear thing is a bullshit hypothetical designed only to divide and not address the real issue women are facing, from religion (especially in politics), poor education and internet fear mongering such as the men Vs bear topic designed to make people live their lives in fear instead of correcting the issues.
  I'm not trying to say women don't live in fear, just that sexism isn't the way to fight sexism. It's pretty common knowledge that black people have the highest statistics for crime in general (without going into further discussion) does this mean we should all become racist? Because I certainly don't think that's the answer, just like topics designed around sexism aren't the answer here.
  It's not that it makes me uncomfortable, but more misinformation and exaggerated statements is one of the biggest threats currently facing humanity, man Vs bear does nothing but add to this.
  Yes there is a problem, yes it needs addressing, discussions like this are far from helpful and only alienate half the allies.

It's so tiring seeing the men coming in and deliberately misunderstanding what's being discussed. They will do literally anything, appear dumb as rocks, to not recognize rape culture and admit potentially any fault or responsibility towards it's continued existence. They take everything personally instead of being able to see that societal problems there are also responsible for helping to fix.
- Are we also going to tolerate the same with Islam and terrorism? POC and safety because "crime statistics"? If those are not acceptable because it's not anyone's individual responsibility for others in an involuntarily assigned group, why is this ok?
  
  see my comment here if you would
  
  Same arguments, still wrong. Fuck off misogynist.
- Here's the problem with that statement. I agree that there is a problem with men committing rape. However, I (along with most men) have never raped anybody. Furthermore I have not done anything to perpetuate the actions of the minority of men who do commit sex crimes. Therefore I do NOT take responsibility or admit fault for their actions. Saying that men as a whole are the problem is offensive and unhelpful. It's how random peaceful Muslims feel when conservatives tell them they need to take responsibility for the actions of terrorists and take action to stop terrorists "in their community" like all Muslims are in one big group chat. I would straight up give my life to prevent a woman I don't know from being raped. Idk what more you want from me.
  
  Your tiny bit of discomfort is clearly more important than rape culture that, yes you too, are contributing to. This is contribution to ignoring rape culture.
  Your willful ignorance and not listening to women is enabling rapists.
  
  the difference is that the patriarchy exists and favors men. there is no systematic structure that puts Muslims above others, at the expense of others, in a way that is parallel to what the patriarchy does.
  i get what you are saying, and maybe not too long ago i was professing quite similar feelings, but i encourage you to self interrogate how big of a difference that is. truly hope this is helpful.
- It isn't always deliberate, I can guarantee you that.
- this comment section has been so enlightening about the makeup of this side of the fediverse. and all i can say is i am so sorry. i always guessed it was a male-heavy makeup but i never thought it would precipitate this badly.
  this community usually veers leftist and toward respecting human dignity, but it appears as soon as women express the pain and fear that is forced upon them for merely existing all of that is lost and their comments are getting 30/70 downvoted, even in conversations where folks have already acknowledged the caveat of the importance of non-alienating.
  it’s clear there is a lot of work to be done when one of the most progressive communities i have ever followed is so packed with malinformed spite as soon as the subject comes to humans asking for the basic privilege of safety.
  
  Agreed and well said. It's very disheartening. For me it's just another example of how pervasive and ingrained the patriarchy and misogyny is.
- Not all men /s
  Your comment really hits the nail on the head, esp the dumb as rocks part. I think part of that stupidity is legitimately not being able to see past our own privilege.
  E: baha, downvote me harder, you nematodes
  
  Yeah. I give some benefit of the doubt but after seeing plenty of varied and good explanations I'm tired of holding everyone's hand who's had plenty of chances to learn. After a while it just becomes men not listening and believing women which is too typical.